LC: Can you fold Premium PP 's on a scary board?

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

Is anyone able to fold premium pocket pairs on a scary board? By this I mean flop has over cards to your pair or 3 of same suit or 3 in sequence? Obviously if you're all-in pf this would be a bad beat, but if you're not all-in pf and you see the flop you should be able to get away from the hand, right?

For example:
You have AA, flop is 3 flush cards
You have KK or QQ, flop is contains an A or K, respectively

What line do you take post flop (assuming you bet pf and got 1 or more callers/raiser)?

[fnord_too]

Yes I can. But that decision is all about stack sizes and opponents. Here's a good example:
First or second round I open in ep with KK, get one caller. Flop comes A high, I lead and get raised. I have to have a damn good reason not to muck here.

Hands where I have something like AA and the flop come TJQs (not either of my suits) are much harder to get away from since there are so many possible draws that could be semi-bluffing, but early on I would not go broke in this situation without a good read on the opponent.

Also, it is harder to get away from QQ on a K high board than KK on an A high board since there are a lot fewer K hands that will call raises cold than A hands.

Also, against aggressive players who will semi-bluff it is a lot harder to get away from a single overcard board when the board is draw heavy (like 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif when you have the red queens).

In short, yes I can get away though whether I choose to or not is highly situational.

[MegaBet]

Every situation is different. This is where reads and betting patterns and stack sizes are very important.

So answering your specific question, yes you can fold premium PPs on a scary board, but sometimes you don't. A general answer for a very general question.

out ouf curiosity fnord_too, what do you raise first or second round with aces or kings? I can see ALMOST slowplaying aces pf, to get more people in, but I have to raise something with my kings to get Ax outta there.

the problem is 9 times out of 10 I end up taking home the blinds. whoop de do. I just assure myself it's better than folding to Ax.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
I can see ALMOST slowplaying aces pf, to get more people in...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is THE cardinal sin of SNG poker. Don't do it unless you like pain.

Get more than 3 people in preflop, and your aces are no longer favored.

[jon462]

the second example is fairly easy to fold unless you are heads up or vs a shorty or maniac.. the first is more difficult for me and situation dependent.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
...whether I choose to or not is highly situational.

[/ QUOTE ] - agreed.

Coming from the "land of many chips", I proceed with 'QQ/KK...A on board' more times than not. As "AK" is such a likely hand represented by your PFr, I find it usually successful to proceed post-flop. Very satisfying to raise an apparent-weak-ace(or not) lead, testing the waters - followed by his quick fold.

Again, I think "Situational" is the key word. But on those occasions, it generally takes quite a bit of aggression to pull it off. Any sign of weakness on a lead opportunity, or not raising anothers' lead, will quickly find yourself getting rolled over (of course, this is why slowplaying pays when it works).

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
Every situation is different. This is where reads and betting patterns and stack sizes are very important.

So answering your specific question, yes you can fold premium PPs on a scary board, but sometimes you don't. A general answer for a very general question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made it a general question b/c I did not want to make a "bad beat" post. But I get so pissed, when the little voice says "be careful" and the dominant voice say "POOOSSSHHH!!!"

I really want to know if people are disciplined enough to fold here. I suspect someone like Curtains has no trouble folding this, while I (and I assume many people) have trouble folding in this situation.

I was discussing with another respected poster and he thought that it is probably wrong to ever fold here unless you have an air-tight read.

megabet. I know its a cardinal sin to slowplay aces (my eyes almost popped out when I first read that section in HOH) but my problem here, is that the way you WANT to play aces is to generate the most money.

well, Im in a $11 SNG, and I get AA. I raise to 120 here, I get the blinds.

I raise to 45... and everyone calls with crap, and sucks out.

wondering what people's usual line is on this, and where I would find the happy medium.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
megabet. I know its a cardinal sin to slowplay aces (my eyes almost popped out when I first read that section in HOH) but my problem here, is that the way you WANT to play aces is to generate the most money.

well, Im in a $11 SNG, and I get AA. I raise to 120 here, I get the blinds.

I raise to 45... and everyone calls with crap, and sucks out.

wondering what people's usual line is on this, and where I would find the happy medium.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that AA is very strong when you're against few players and weak in a multiway pot. More people means more money in pot and often makes it correct to chase on a draw. Big bets get the drawing hands to fold, leaving paired hands in and less likely to draw out on you, IMO.

[Freudian]

I folded AA on a Q high non-flush non-straight board yesterday. Basically he made a AA-QQ reraise preflop and I called to trap him. I check to him (to c/r) and he checks behind me on the Q-rag-rag flop. I check the turn and he bets pot. Pretty much the only hand that he would make a milking reraise preflop with that I can see him check behind me on that flop was QQ.

Of course I felt like I was seeing monsters but the way the hand played QQ was the only hand that made sense to me. Of course if my read on the player is wrong and he makes that reraise to my 4xBB raise preflop with a much wider range of hands than I think, I play this hand absolutely horribly. If he makes any kind of bet on the flop all my chips will go in the middle before the hand is over.

[Nicholasp27]

well it's not a bad beat if he was ahead of you when you pushed...

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
I folded AA on a Q high non-flush non-straight board yesterday. Basically he made a AA-QQ reraise preflop and I called to trap him. I check to him (to c/r) and he checks behind me on the Q-rag-rag flop. I check the turn and he bets pot. Pretty much the only hand that he would make a milking reraise preflop with that I can see him check behind me on that flop was QQ.

Of course I felt like I was seeing monsters but the way the hand played QQ was the only hand that made sense to me. Of course if my read on the player is wrong and he makes that reraise to my 4xBB raise preflop with a much wider range of hands than I think, I play this hand absolutely horribly. If he makes any kind of bet on the flop all my chips will go in the middle before the hand is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely suspect sets/two-pair and they frequently get all of my chips. But couldn't villain have had Qx, w/ x likely being A,K, or J (in your senario)?

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
megabet. I know its a cardinal sin to slowplay aces (my eyes almost popped out when I first read that section in HOH) but my problem here, is that the way you WANT to play aces is to generate the most money.

well, Im in a $11 SNG, and I get AA. I raise to 120 here, I get the blinds.

I raise to 45... and everyone calls with crap, and sucks out.

wondering what people's usual line is on this, and where I would find the happy medium.

[/ QUOTE ]

You answered your own question here. 120 is too much, 45 is too little. Go with 70-80 and you'll make the most out of it.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
megabet. I know its a cardinal sin to slowplay aces (my eyes almost popped out when I first read that section in HOH) but my problem here, is that the way you WANT to play aces is to generate the most money.

well, Im in a $11 SNG, and I get AA. I raise to 120 here, I get the blinds.

I raise to 45... and everyone calls with crap, and sucks out.

wondering what people's usual line is on this, and where I would find the happy medium.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise to 80 then.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
I folded AA on a Q high non-flush non-straight board yesterday. Basically he made a AA-QQ reraise preflop and I called to trap him. I check to him (to c/r) and he checks behind me on the Q-rag-rag flop. I check the turn and he bets pot. Pretty much the only hand that he would make a milking reraise preflop with that I can see him check behind me on that flop was QQ.

Of course I felt like I was seeing monsters but the way the hand played QQ was the only hand that made sense to me. Of course if my read on the player is wrong and he makes that reraise to my 4xBB raise preflop with a much wider range of hands than I think, I play this hand absolutely horribly. If he makes any kind of bet on the flop all my chips will go in the middle before the hand is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh boy, you can't fold that. If he does magically have QQ here I will go broke (unless I spike another ace /images/graemlins/grin.gif )

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
out ouf curiosity fnord_too, what do you raise first or second round with aces or kings? I can see ALMOST slowplaying aces pf, to get more people in, but I have to raise something with my kings to get Ax outta there.


[/ QUOTE ]

I always make my standard raise: 3BB + 1 BB per limper. Occasionally at an aggressive table I will limp EP hoping to limp reraise. If it is raised in front of me, I usually reraise but may smooth call depending on the exact circumstances. In limit, it may be more +EV to invite people in with aces occasionally, but in NL that is just asking to win a small pot or get stacked.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I folded AA on a Q high non-flush non-straight board yesterday. Basically he made a AA-QQ reraise preflop and I called to trap him. I check to him (to c/r) and he checks behind me on the Q-rag-rag flop. I check the turn and he bets pot. Pretty much the only hand that he would make a milking reraise preflop with that I can see him check behind me on that flop was QQ.

Of course I felt like I was seeing monsters but the way the hand played QQ was the only hand that made sense to me. Of course if my read on the player is wrong and he makes that reraise to my 4xBB raise preflop with a much wider range of hands than I think, I play this hand absolutely horribly. If he makes any kind of bet on the flop all my chips will go in the middle before the hand is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh boy, you can't fold that. If he does magically have QQ here I will go broke (unless I spike another ace /images/graemlins/grin.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't fold here 99 times out of 100. Previously it was 100 out of 100, and I would bet/raise all the way despite by gut telling me I was beat that last hand.

The big question is why I didn't reraise all-in preflop since I was convinced he had AA-QQ. F P S.