I like marginal hands

[sfer]

10 handed Party 20/40. Tilting UTG limps, two more limpers, I limp on the button with T /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, tight-agg SB raises, BB calls (35ish/9ish), we all call. 6 players, 12 SBs.

Flop is 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets. His tilt has been near maniacal preflop, less so on the flop, taking almost any hand to the river and any pair to showdown. Folds to me and I raise, SB folds, BB now check/3-bets, UTG calls and I call.

3 players 10.5 BBs. Turn card is the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB bets, UTG calls and I raise.

[toss]

Nice semibluff raise.

[callmedonnie]

Not bad. Certainly better than calling. You can't fold to a raise on turn because of pot size. If raised is the plan to fold to a river bet UI? And if just called on turn, were you intending to bet the river if checked to? I was thinking showdown cheap if possible.

Edit: I failed to mention that I fold this preflop every time. However with a tilting opponent I can see the point of this if the other players are poor.

The more I think about the turn raise the less I like it. Tilter is going anywhere, and the other players odds are so good that I couldn't imagine him folding on turn. By the river, I just don't know if you can get a better hand to fold.

[Moneyline]

Preflop: I don't think "marginal" is the right way to describe this starting hand. -EV seems more appropriate. Your straight potential is fairly mild, so you're basically hoping to spike a pair that quite often won't even be top pair, and of course your kicker is very marginal. I don't think this is a massive mistake, but I definitely do think this is a mistake.

Flop: Looks good.

Turn: I think raising is worth a shot considering the size of the pot. If SB sticks around though, I wouldn't want to value bet the river.

[ QUOTE ]
10 handed Party 20/40. Tilting UTG limps, two more limpers, I limp on the button with T /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, tight-agg SB raises, BB calls (35ish/9ish), we all call. 6 players, 12 SBs.

Flop is 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets. His tilt has been near maniacal preflop, less so on the flop, taking almost any hand to the river and any pair to showdown. Folds to me and I raise, SB folds, BB now check/3-bets, UTG calls and I call.

3 players 10.5 BBs. Turn card is the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB bets, UTG calls and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an absolutely horrible play!! PREFLOP: I wont talk about preflop cuz even if this call is a mistake its so small that it would be a waste of time talking about it. FLOP: Good raise and I understand why you called the 3 bet becuz of the huge pot odds. TURN: Unimproved, You should be folding here!! What do you think the BB is checkraise 3 betting this flop on? This screams he has a set in my opinion, and if he doesnt have a set he has somekind of cheezy two pair which he will never fold in this situation. This is plain spewing pure and simple. Fold the turn.

[silkyslim]

I dont know how you would make money on this type of play in the long run. I fold preflop.

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
10 handed Party 20/40. Tilting UTG limps, two more limpers, I limp on the button with T /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, tight-agg SB raises, BB calls (35ish/9ish), we all call. 6 players, 12 SBs.

Flop is 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets. His tilt has been near maniacal preflop, less so on the flop, taking almost any hand to the river and any pair to showdown. Folds to me and I raise, SB folds, BB now check/3-bets, UTG calls and I call.

3 players 10.5 BBs. Turn card is the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB bets, UTG calls and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an absolutely horrible play!! PREFLOP: I wont talk about preflop cuz even if this call is a mistake its so small that it would be a waste of time talking about it. FLOP: Good raise and I understand why you called the 3 bet becuz of the huge pot odds. TURN: Unimproved, You should be folding here!! What do you think the BB is checkraise 3 betting this flop on? This screams he has a set in my opinion, and if he doesnt have a set he has somekind of cheezy two pair which he will never fold in this situation. This is plain spewing pure and simple. Fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop please.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
10 handed Party 20/40. Tilting UTG limps, two more limpers, I limp on the button with T /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, tight-agg SB raises, BB calls (35ish/9ish), we all call. 6 players, 12 SBs.

Flop is 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets. His tilt has been near maniacal preflop, less so on the flop, taking almost any hand to the river and any pair to showdown. Folds to me and I raise, SB folds, BB now check/3-bets, UTG calls and I call.

3 players 10.5 BBs. Turn card is the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. BB bets, UTG calls and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an absolutely horrible play!! PREFLOP: I wont talk about preflop cuz even if this call is a mistake its so small that it would be a waste of time talking about it. FLOP: Good raise and I understand why you called the 3 bet becuz of the huge pot odds. TURN: Unimproved, You should be folding here!! What do you think the BB is checkraise 3 betting this flop on? This screams he has a set in my opinion, and if he doesnt have a set he has somekind of cheezy two pair which he will never fold in this situation. This is plain spewing pure and simple. Fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calm down. He could have, e.g., 79. He could fold a better 8 to Dave's turn raise.

[Jake (The Snake)]

first thing I thought was, yeah, this is ok because of 97 or 75 or something like that. but now I dont really see what the c/r accomplishes. its not going to fold those hands anyway until the river. that extra bet can't be worth it as those two hands make up too small a part of villains range. so we have to fold better hands some portion of the time i think. right?

edit: and it seems to me the only hands we are capable of folding are K8, Q8, and J8. sometimes he won't fold those, and often he doesn't 3-bet the flop with those. i'm really interested in your thought process on this one

[KDawgCometh]

folding to a three bet, yes? I like this. If you just get called on the raise, what is your plan of action on the river if another bet gets fired into you

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you and jake both mentioned 97, but you realized dave said sb was a tight agg player and raised preflop right?

he's obviously representing AA-TT here. given that the A fell on the turn, it makes AA less likely and it makes sfer's turn raise look more believable, especially with a player in the middle. this raise is obviously trying to get KK-TT to fold here.

how do i know? cuz dave learned this move from me.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
you and jake both mentioned 97, but you realized dave said sb was a tight agg player and raised preflop right?

he's obviously representing AA-TT here. given that the A fell on the turn, it makes AA less likely and it makes sfer's turn raise look more believable, especially with a player in the middle. this raise is obviously trying to get KK-TT to fold here.

how do i know? cuz dave learned this move from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The SB raised preflop, but check/folded the flop to Dave's raise. It is the BB who has VPIP in the mid 30s that check/3-bet the flop.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you and jake both mentioned 97, but you realized dave said sb was a tight agg player and raised preflop right?

he's obviously representing AA-TT here. given that the A fell on the turn, it makes AA less likely and it makes sfer's turn raise look more believable, especially with a player in the middle. this raise is obviously trying to get KK-TT to fold here.

how do i know? cuz dave learned this move from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The SB raised preflop, but check/folded the flop to Dave's raise. It is the BB who has VPIP in the mid 30s that check/3-bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

HA NEVERMIND THEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jskills]

Limping on the button with a variety of hands often crosses my mind, but I've really tried to stop myself. Sure I have position, but unless I flop an excellent draw (or some kind of sneaky monster), you're often getting into bad kicker issues, second best hands, and the like.

Flop raise seems appropriate of course, but the check / 3-bet has to have you more than a little concerned, given BB's call of the preflop raise no?

On the turn, when an A hits, BB donks and UTG calls (yes I know he's a madman, but is he going to just call with absolutely nothing?), I just cannot see how your middle pair 10 kicker can be good. So I assume the raise is done with full knowledge of that in an attempt to get everyone to fold (especially BB)? If both call, what is the plan for the river if BB donks again?

Back to the turn raise : With the size of the pot, can you really get two villans to fold for a turn raise and the possibility of having to call one more on the river?

Also, do we assume you are folding to a 3-bet on the turn?

For the record, I know I have a lot to learn, so anyone reading this, feel free to school me if I'm way off base.