Discussion: Can I win at 10/20 by playing straight-forward poker?

[odawg09090]

Lately, I've seen a few posts where the hero makes a fancy or tricky play to try to take down the pot. Here is an example of a "tricky" play that my respected coach (not sure if he wants to reveal himself) told me to make:

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

AND

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (5 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (5.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

His reasoning was that there was a good chance that this guy is bluffing with that low board and that a riverbet would make him fold more than one in five (which i definitely agree with). I don't really want to go into much analysis about this hand but I wanted to post them as examples of the "trickery" that I'm talking about. These plays are much harder to make than the more straightforward ones that I'm used to making at the 5/10 level.

At the more passive 5/10, I feel that it's right to always bet or raise for a reason. Whether it's raising for a free card, or for value with a good draw, there's always a textbook reason for raising. On the other hand, at 10/20, this is not always the case. Many times because of the increased aggression at this level, betting and raising becomes a game of "chicken" to steal and resteal the pot.

My question: Can I be a significant, consistent winner (1.5BB+) at the 10/20 game without ever making these trick plays? No nude raise bluffs on the turn when the Ace hits after a blind steal raise with K9 preflop, etc, etc etc. Obviously, the flop semi-bluff raises for value or the free card/showdown is okay. If you say no, how much do you think these non-straightforward plays account for in your winrate (in BB/100)?

[TheMetetron]

Yes, you can.

I don't like the play in either of these hands.

People are dumb.

[DCWGaming]

Uh...hand 1...

So even if he is folding the river 1/5 (assuming a blank river), on the turn you know that you're going to have to pay at least 2 bets for it. If he folds the riv, you make what, a 6BB pot? you need him to be folding 1:3 because you're basically dedicating 2BBs the second you call on the turn.what happens if the river is A K or J? Do you checkfold it? And if its a Q or 8, you bet/call? I dont know. I'm not great, but i cant make the math work here...

Hand 2...i cant see why he'd bet into you on the river on that board if he had nothing. Maybe 10/20 is just a different world though.

At least the first hand had a chance.

Step 1: Look at the 2nd hand a little more closely.
Step 2: Fire your coach.

[wackjob]

Yes you can win playing very standard TAG style. However I doubt it will get you the best possible winrate. I doubt you will be able to do 2+BB/100 over a large sample playing tight straightforward poker.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

The "tricky" play in the second hand seems terrible.

People rarely fold in this game for one more bet on the river when they have a pair. The only hand you get him to fold that you would'nt have beat by calling is Ax, and you're splitting with all of those besides AQ. You're getting 6.5:2 to do this and I don't think it works close to that often.

-Craig

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

[ QUOTE ]
Step 2: Fire your coach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Even I can see that hand two is spewage, and I wouldn't feel all that comfortable coaching someone in that game.

As for your original question about ABC poker, it depends what you mean by that. If you have good hand/board reading skills and play ABC based on that you'll be fine.

-Craig

[helpmeout]

If by tricky you mean chip spewing then yeah.

[nervous]

Was your coach the villian in these hands?

[MrBig30]

[ QUOTE ]
If by tricky you mean chip spewing then yeah.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Subby]

That second hand is just...ouch.

Anyway - hang in there. I think one of the hardest things I have had to learn is that I don't always have to try and make moves to win at this level. That's hard to follow through on when you finally catch a guy bluffraising you with 6-high whose aggression you have been folding to for the past 15 minutes. In other words, for most players, flashy gambling moves might work in the short term, but in the long term they are just going to kill you.