215: AK hand that is driving me crazy

[Newt_Buggs]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t910)
MP1 (t1460)
MP2 (t975)
MP3 (t975)
CO (t1160)
Button (t750)
SB (t1545)
BB (t655)
UTG (t1570)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t85</font>, MP1 calls t85, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls t85, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (t300) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, MP1 calls t150, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t400</font>, Hero?

no reads

on a side not: Today I started experimenting with 9-12 tabeling the $215s so we will see how that goes.

[Jman28]

I'm not happy with the situation, but I'm folding. AQ is most likely I think. Not too worried about the caller.

[curtains]

ahhh I would just move allin and hope they are some moron. How often does some idiot make some smallish raise where you assume they would only do so unless they had a huge hand, and then turn over AT. The answer is too often.

[fnord_too]

meh, first thought is to call and push any non spade turn.

[durron597]

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meh, first thought is to call and push any non spade turn.

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What do you do if the turn *is* a spade? Fold after investing half your stack?

No, the decision must be made on the flop. What worries me is that he's making this raise into two opponents. The thing though is that with a Q on board and you see two aces there aren't that many ways for him to have AQ, and like curtains says you will see AT a lot here or a silly hand like KQ/images/graemlins/spade.gif/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I would push.

[fnord_too]

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meh, first thought is to call and push any non spade turn.

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What do you do if the turn *is* a spade? Fold after investing half your stack?



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If it is a spade I check call, bet the river if checked through. My reason for not pushing the flop is not that I am affraid of getting beaten, I am committed to the hand, but that I want to maximize the chance of all his money going into the center if all mine is.

[bugstud]

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meh, first thought is to call and push any non spade turn.

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What do you do if the turn *is* a spade? Fold after investing half your stack?



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If it is a spade I check call, bet the river if checked through. My reason for not pushing the flop is not that I am affraid of getting beaten, I am committed to the hand, but that I want to maximize the chance of all his money going into the center if all mine is.

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I'm not sure that check calling a spade can be right.

[durron597]

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I'm not sure that check calling a spade can be right.

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If he has a hand like A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif check calling the turn is probably the worst thing you can do, IMO.

[deathpotato]

Yeah, unless you know button is good you should probably just push. He'll turn over a flush draw, AJ, AK plenty of times. He'll also obviously turn over AQ quite often but I don't think you can avoid paying him off here unless you know him.

Good luck with the 12-tabling!

[Havok]

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I'm not sure that check calling a spade can be right.

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If he has a hand like A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif check calling the turn is probably the worst thing you can do, IMO.

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Honest question. What are the reasons for pushing here. I've been in this situation numerous times, and the mini raise could mean a lot. From a strong player for example I would worry about AQ or Queens. So why would the push be correct if your behind?

[fnord_too]

Check calling a spade only really burns you if he has exactly one spade and checks the turn and a spade hits. Pushing there may let him get away from a hand he would push if checked to (not wanting to give a free card or now having a pair + spade draw or just betting the scare card). Honestly, I don't think any line that has you putting all your chips in is that bad in this hand, but any line that involves folding is horrible without a real strong read. I certainly feel sick if I check a spade and it gets checked through and a spade comes on the river, since now I am in a spot where either I will not get paid off by a weaker hand and may be put to the test since the pot is so significant compared to my stack.

[inyaface]

Just a thought...what about just calling and pushing the turn in the dark. Obviously cons are if hes behind you give him a card to catch up and if he's ahead he probably won't fold the turn.

So the scenarios are If you just call and a spade comes he's probably only calling if he had a flush draw and theres a slight chance he folds 2 pair or a set. If he's on that draw and no spade hits then you might get a fold where you would not have on the flop or at the absolute least your chargning him a lot to try and hit his outs with 1 card to come.

If the turn blanks off and you push he's probaly calling you with any pair hand or better which would have the same outcome of pushing the flop. So the only problem seems to be if a J or 10 or something stupid like that hits to compleate a 2 pair hand and like I said they were probably calling you anyways with these hands.
Maybe this is wrong but just another way to play the hand.

[fnord_too]

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I'm not sure that check calling a spade can be right.

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If he has a hand like A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif check calling the turn is probably the worst thing you can do, IMO.

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Against the range of hands he may have I think it is fine*. Even against AcJs I don't think it is that bad. If he is smart enough to check behind there and fold if a spade does not come, then it is bad. Since that scenario has him calling an EP raise with AJo, then raising a dangerous flop, I'll take my chances he's not that smart. IMO this is almost a way ahead or way behind spot. The only real danger (from our hypothetical turn scenario) is if he has a weaker ace with a spade kicker, and will fold if we bet into him (since we would certainly love to get the spade kicker out at this point). In all other cases, a turn spade changes nothing. (He may have hit his 3 out kicker, but that's not really germane here).

*well, unless that range includes complete donk hands like TTs or "what have I done???" hands like KKs and he is ready to give up on the turn, even having picked up the spade draw.

[Bluff Daddy]

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I'm not sure that check calling a spade can be right.

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If he has a hand like A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif check calling the turn is probably the worst thing you can do, IMO.

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Honest question. What are the reasons for pushing here. I've been in this situation numerous times, and the mini raise could mean a lot. From a strong player for example I would worry about AQ or Queens. So why would the push be correct if your behind?

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a push is correct for all of the times that you will be ahead here

[Newt_Buggs]

I just wanted to clarify some things that seem to be getting overlooked. The button has 265 behind, there's almost no chance that he folds any hand worth raising to a push here. Given this, I see no advantage to calling and pushing the turn over just pushing the flop. Calling is even worse considering that MP1 is still around.

Also, I could be wrong, but I highly doubt that the button is on a spade draw. I can't really quantify it, but just look at the action. Its very rare that a draw is raising to 400 there leaving 265 behind on a draw in this spot.

[MegaBet]

Fold.

I play the 11s, so I wont tell you that what you did was wrong or right, but a problem I see with the hand is that your bet on the flop looks like a continuation bet from KK or something, do you think he was possibly making a move on your with and ace? KsQs? It seems a little early to be making moves since the blinds are only 15/30, but then again I dont know how the 215s play.

[Nick B.]

He has a set, but i still wouldn't fold your hand.

[fnord_too]

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I just wanted to clarify some things that seem to be getting overlooked. The button has 265 behind, there's almost no chance that he folds any hand worth raising to a push here.



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I didn't even look at his stack, just yours; that is a good point, just shove now, you can't get away here IMO without a good read.

[curtains]

Id say hes a clear underdog to have a set IMO.

[bigt439]

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Just a thought...what about just calling and pushing the turn in the dark. Obviously cons are if hes behind you give him a card to catch up and if he's ahead he probably won't fold the turn.

So the scenarios are If you just call and a spade comes he's probably only calling if he had a flush draw and theres a slight chance he folds 2 pair or a set. If he's on that draw and no spade hits then you might get a fold where you would not have on the flop or at the absolute least your chargning him a lot to try and hit his outs with 1 card to come.

If the turn blanks off and you push he's probaly calling you with any pair hand or better which would have the same outcome of pushing the flop. So the only problem seems to be if a J or 10 or something stupid like that hits to compleate a 2 pair hand and like I said they were probably calling you anyways with these hands.
Maybe this is wrong but just another way to play the hand.

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God damnit man, stop doing things in the dark. It can not possibly be an advantage if other people don't know you're doing it in the dark, and they don't online. Even live I think it's stupid, but how can it ever be a good idea online? You can decide you're committed and that pushing any turn is a good idea. Maybe that is what you're saying, but from talking with you before you like this stuff way too much, so I'm assuming you're getting at something a little different. I may be wrong though. I just don't think it makes sense to give the man in the middle a chance to probably correctly call with a draw.

[inyaface]

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You can decide you're committed and that pushing any turn is a good idea.

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This is what I was saying...also I don't think I check dark for anything besides hilarity value or any games higher then .25/.50 NL.
After rethinking the hand some more and realising the reraiser has less then 300 behind I think your beat here. I still often push the flop or turn because I'm a donk.

[adanthar]

Yeah, he has a set or AQ a lot, but I can't fold this without deeper stacks than what you've got.