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Bodhi
09-15-2005, 02:32 AM
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

The preflop 3-bettor is tight-aggressive, though I haven't seen much of him. He's like a 16%, 9%, 2.15 guy. Based on his 3-betting range It looks like the usual 99-AA, and AK, but he's not value-betting this river with QQ or TT, correct? Lastly, if he has KK, I'm beat. I was seriously going to call this down until the K hit...

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, uber-calling-station calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, uber-calling-station calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, uber-calling-station checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, uber-calling-station calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, uber-calling-station checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, uber-calling-station calls.

River: (9.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, uber-calling-station checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero folds, uber-calling-station calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB
thesharpie
09-15-2005, 02:44 AM
Looks good, although I'd be worried about giving KK/images/graemlins/spade.gif a free card on the turn, don't think we should bet though just in case he's the type to raise that KK/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Nick C
09-15-2005, 02:45 AM
The only reason I think you would have won is that you're posting this.

I really wouldn't expect the TAG to bet again with a hand that doesn't have you beat.
09-15-2005, 02:45 AM
Fold the flop. Your hand is only slightly better than sucky. You don't have a spade. This is a NOT good time to go for WA/WB IMO. Fold.
thesharpie
09-15-2005, 02:48 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. Your hand is only slightly better than sucky. You don't have a spade. This is a good time to go for WA/WB IMO. Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not a WA/WB line, that would be a WWB line. And we're never WA here.
09-15-2005, 02:51 AM
My bad, typo...I meant, this is NOT a good time to go for WA/WB. If anything other than folding, I'd say c/r the flop and leading the turn would be better than just calling down.
Bodhi
09-15-2005, 02:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The only reason I think you would have won is that you're posting this.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're way too suspicious.
csuf_gambler
09-15-2005, 03:17 AM
check raise flop and fold to 3bet?

open bet flop and fold to raise?
Evan
09-15-2005, 03:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
check raise flop and fold to 3bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

What is the worst line possible?
thesharpie
09-15-2005, 03:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What is the worst line possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
check raise flop and fold to 3bet?


[/ QUOTE ]
csuf_gambler
09-15-2005, 03:36 AM
how so
Bodhi
09-15-2005, 03:38 AM
Because the villain could be 3-betting K/images/graemlins/spade.gifKx, if you want one reason.
thesharpie
09-15-2005, 03:39 AM
There's no value in it, we open ourselves up to folding the best hand, we open ourselves up to being raised on the turn.
09-15-2005, 03:56 AM
I dont get your line. I would probably fold this on the flop without a spade, but since you do choose to call down, you must be hoping for villain to have something like 99,TT QQ or KK. (24 combinations, against the 20 ways he can have AA, AK, AQ, and JJ, where you have 0 or 3 outs to improve).

Following your line, if you want to pay 2,5 BB to see if he has a hand in the first range, why dont you pay the last 1BB to see if he has 99,TT or QQ? (18 combinations)

Maybe my logic is flawed here, but I think that if you choose to call down, you cant fold to this non-spade river.
thesharpie
09-15-2005, 03:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I dont get your line. I would probably fold this on the flop without a spade, but since you do choose to call down, you must be hoping for villain to have something like 99,TT QQ or KK. (24 combinations, against the 20 ways he can have AA, AK, AQ, and JJ, where you have 0 or 3 outs to improve).

Following your line, if you want to pay 2,5 BB to see if he has a hand in the first range, why dont you pay the last 1BB to see if he has 99,TT or QQ? (18 combinations)

Maybe my logic is flawed here, but I think that if you choose to call down, you cant fold to this non-spade river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of those 18 combinations, he's usually betting them never.
Bodhi
09-15-2005, 04:06 AM
The idea is that a thinking player isn't going to bet QQ, TT or 99 when the K falls on the river. If we suppose the river were a blank, the villain would probably bet KK or QQ, and I would call with the winning hand. Once he bets the river, his hand can be deduced to either a pair of aces like AK or AQs, KK or JJ.
Bodhi
09-15-2005, 04:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Because of those 18 combinations, he's usually betting them never.

[/ QUOTE ]

If only I could express myself so concisely. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
09-15-2005, 05:06 AM
I may be wrong, but I would still call here. If he is betting a hand without an Ace, which we must hope he is since we call flop and turn, can we be so sure that he is not continuing this on the river that we fold for the last bet?

Sometimes people get carried away with betting a smaller PP than TP when called down. It may not happen often enough to merit a call on the river, but I wouldn't be certain enough to let this pot go for the last bet.

Maybe I have a leak here, comments are welcome!
Bodhi
09-15-2005, 02:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If he is betting a hand without an Ace, which we must hope he is since we call flop and turn, can we be so sure that he is not continuing this on the river that we fold for the last bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
We can't be sure that he's not betting a hand without an Ace on the river, but we can be sure that he's betting a hand that beats us: A big Ace, JJ or KK.

[ QUOTE ]
The idea is that a thinking player isn't going to bet QQ, TT or 99 when the K falls on the river. [It makes no sense to value bet QQ when there's two overcards on the board]. If we suppose the river were a blank, the villain would probably bet KK or QQ, and I would call with the winning hand. Once he bets the river, his hand can be deduced to either a pair of aces like AK or AQs, KK or JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]