Why is 1/2 like WAY harder than .50/1?

[Fryguy]

I just feel like I'm getting man-handled by the 1/2 players. It seems whenever I make a play at a pot somebody was slowplaying a monster hand, and whenever I fold second pair the other 2 people in the pot were bluffing with overcards.

Anybody else get this feeling when moving up to 1/2, and does it go away?

[BatsShadow]

1/2 sucks ass. I play 1/2 for awhile, lose some, then win it back by playing 1/2 6max instead. I just keep putting off the part where I go back to the full game.

I think I'm starting to get a better grasp of it. Here are my current thoughts:

1) Stealing attempts can happen more, so on steals, you have to steal a bit more than .5/1 and also protect your blind from steals more. BUT only a little bit more. If you accidentally let your steal attempt get up to 45% like I did, you get owned.

2) Depending on when you play, and your table selection abilities, any PP and any Axs from any position is often a losing play. Try your best to seek out tables where these plays are still ok, but don't count on it. You must be disciplined enough to fold these hands in early position if the game requires.

3) If players like to check-raise the turn (HINT: They do.), take more free cards instead of the old style of the continued agression. You're in the best shape if you know your players. Some people will always fold after you bet the turn, some will C/R every time they have a hand, and some will always C/R, period.

[Deamon2]

you're probably sitting at the wrong tables. there are some very difficult 1/2 tables, but then again there are plenty of easy 1/2 tables as well. you just have to look for them.

[Fryguy]

I definetely noticed more tricky play in 1/2, something I guess I'll have to get used to.

[Greg J]

Why have there been a rash of "1/2 is so much harder than .5/1" posts lately? I don't get it. I just cleared a bonus playing 1/2 full the other day on Party (which by the way is the BEST limit for bonus clearance hands down IMO), and they are still soft. Some tables are tighter than others, but all are very beatable.

The only thing I can tell you is that you should post some hands that make you feel icky. 1/2 does have a different feel overall, and you do have to make some adjustments, but there is no reason you should not beat this limit. The players are tighter in general, but still bad.

1) Table selection 2) Pay more attention to how your opponents play and adjust accordingly 3) Instead of posting something like this post some hands that you have problems with

[BatsShadow]

Hey Greg, I feel the very same way as Fryguy, even after countless posts like yours saying how it's not bad. I think the reason is because 1/2 was the first time things changed. Previously, the game just gets a bit tighter as you move up limits. I started at .05/.1, then .1/.2, then .25/.5, then .5/1 was the easiest jump of all.

1/2 was the first level where there really is a difference in style. The part that bothers me the most is that I can tell by watching that these players are all horrible, but after 6k hands, I'm still losing almost 2bb/100.

[ClaytonN]

yawn @ you bitchy whiners.

post hands and learn the game. it's not like 10/20 for crying out loud. this game is stupid easy to beat if you learn.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
yawn @ you bitchy whiners.

post hands and learn the game. it's not like 10/20 for crying out loud. this game is stupid easy to beat if you learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[UATrewqaz]

I have to say the talk of 1/2 sucking is highly exaggerated. Since I moved to 1/2 I've been beating the shiznit out of it.

Only 7.5K hands but good results

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1117/126kw.jpg

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yawn @ you bitchy whiners.

post hands and learn the game. it's not like 10/20 for crying out loud. this game is stupid easy to beat if you learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have said "whiny bitches."

[stuartharris]

I play exclusively at UB, which I keep reading is the worst place to play if you're looking for easy games. I'm constantly going back and forth between .25/.50 and .50/1 there. I read that .50/1 at UB is much like more expensive games on other sites; I don't know if that's accurate or not.

Given time, I always beat .25/.50 and move up. Given time, I always lose at .50/1 and move down. The biggest difference that I see is that I can't really seem to figure out how aggressive to be when I miss the flop at the higher level. It's seems I'm always open raising pre-flop, then finding myself with two overcards against three or four opponents on the flop, usually without pot odds to continue, but often suspecting that I'm ahead or could take the pot by being aggressive. This is the situation that I think I have to master before I move up to bigger games.

[milesdyson]

learn how to play

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Greg, I feel the very same way as Fryguy, even after countless posts like yours saying how it's not bad. I think the reason is because 1/2 was the first time things changed. Previously, the game just gets a bit tighter as you move up limits. I started at .05/.1, then .1/.2, then .25/.5, then .5/1 was the easiest jump of all.

1/2 was the first level where there really is a difference in style. The part that bothers me the most is that I can tell by watching that these players are all horrible, but after 6k hands, I'm still losing almost 2bb/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just curious, since I have never played lower than 1/2. What is this difference? To me a table with 35% VP$IP is a loose table and this is likely why I never understand these posts either.

[KingOtter]

I'm having my first winning day in 10 days, and I will tell you absolutely, unequivocably that 1/2 is not like WAY harder than .50/1.

But you do need to know who you're playing against.

KO

[numeri]

If you want to keep playing a softer game at 1/2, play 6-max. For full ring, just don't expect every player to be LP-P. I've been playing for only a short while at 1/2, but I've found my most success single-tabling. Like they always say, (yet I never seemed to listen) paying attention when you're not playing and watching every hand can help you get reads on players.

For me, that's been the most helpful. I still make bonehead plays (like bluffing someone I know will call down with anything) that are killing my winrate, but at least I know they're mistakes when I do them!

Funny, I've been playing 1/2 for several weeks, and exclusively for about a week, and so far I'm finding it easier than .5/1.

This may be because I've concentrated on reads and position lately (I'll reject a seat and get back on the waitlist if I see I'd be in bad position), or because my bankroll is high enough again that I can play fearlessly (not to be confused with stupidly), which I haven't really done in a while.

Usually, if you're not succeeding, it's something you're doing wrong. The adjustment you have to make may be something you should have done in .5/1, but since you were winning you didn't bother.

I've got to say, I agree with every post so far. Yes, 1\2 is a lot harder. I've gone between .02\.04 to 2\4 and each time I've gone up a level I've come to realise a new leak in my game (only after I've had to drop back).
The single biggest reason - quality of opposition. Quite simply, you can get away with less leaks the higher the level. At .5/1 the quality of opposition lets you get away with more mistakes but you can still be making money.
Plus bonus whores love to play at 1/2 and 2/4. If the site your playing at is offering a bonus, expect your win rate to be a lot less.
Try a different site and see if you get the same results. If you do, chances are, your not ready.

[scotty34]

Of course the game is going to get harder as you move up limits. If that wasn't the case, I would be killing the 30/60 tables. What do you expect? The same could be asked of why is .5/1 so much harder than .1/.2? You want a hard jump, try 1/2 6m to 3/6 6m.

Experience, studying, and discussion will have you a 1/2 pro in no time.

[Fryguy]

I'm still making money, just less than I feel like I should be making. I've still got a REALLY small sample size though, so it's definetely too early to b complaining yet.

One of the things I'm having to get used to is flopping overcards OOP and I used to autobet these in .50/1 heads up or 3-way, occasionally 4-way depending on things. Now more often than not I'm getting raised with other overcards trying to push me off the hand, or if I'm in position getting check-raised a lot more. This "better aggression" is throwing me off quite a bit.

I'm still profitable though, so I shouldn't complain too much I guess.

[Asim]

tag

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
(which by the way is the BEST limit for bonus clearance hands down IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

its 6max counterpart has better games, and clears faster

[Wetdog]

I'm going to grunch this and say, honestly, it's not that much harder. Maybe the bet sizes are more intimidating. Maybe the pressure of a higher limit is getting to you. I think maybe you are talking about more smaller sample size. There are less pure fish, but there are fish.

I find the 1/2 tables more of a rock garden. With passive players you need to be more aggressive with the high pairs and draws. They do not bet anything of value without the nuts. Bet your overpairs, 4flushes, OESDs and flopped sets hard.

[Shillx]

You know what...[censored] it. After these two SNG's are done I will sitdown at a 1/2 table for a few orbits to see what is really going on here (I have only played it once, ironically enough to see how they played so I could offer better advice). Hand of that session...

I raise AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and we take a flop maybe 5-way and for 10 small ones. It comes down J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I fire after a few check to me. There is one caller and then someone check/raises. I just call and the flop caller folds. The turn is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he checks and I check behind. The river is a brick and it goes bet-call. Why did I check behind here with trips? Is my hand good?


Interesting hands to follow, I hope.

Brad

[BlackRain]

The 1/2 full ring, at least at stars, is very easy from my experience. I see actual tricky players beginning at 2/4. I am not sure where OP is playing, maybe its different at party or elsewhere. 1/2 full ring on stars is a donkfest with a few solid, but not overly tricky, regulars.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody else get this feeling when moving up to 1/2, and does it go away?
e]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I struggled a lot when first moving up to 1/2. And also when I moved to 2/4, 3/6, ..., sit-n-gos, now NL ring. I think you get the idea.

But moving up and forcing yourself to adjust and get out of your comfort zone is what makes you a better player. Good luck and keep working on your game.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Greg, I feel the very same way as Fryguy, even after countless posts like yours saying how it's not bad. I think the reason is because 1/2 was the first time things changed. Previously, the game just gets a bit tighter as you move up limits. I started at .05/.1, then .1/.2, then .25/.5, then .5/1 was the easiest jump of all.

1/2 was the first level where there really is a difference in style. The part that bothers me the most is that I can tell by watching that these players are all horrible, but after 6k hands, I'm still losing almost 2bb/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just curious, since I have never played lower than 1/2. What is this difference? To me a table with 35% VP$IP is a loose table and this is likely why I never understand these posts either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sitting at two tables with 27% vpip today. One was good, one was rotten. Table vpip doesn't mean a whole lot.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
You know what...[censored] it. After these two SNG's are done I will sitdown at a 1/2 table for a few orbits to see what is really going on here (I have only played it once, ironically enough to see how they played so I could offer better advice). Hand of that session...

I raise AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and we take a flop maybe 5-way and for 10 small ones. It comes down J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I fire after a few check to me. There is one caller and then someone check/raises. I just call and the flop caller folds. The turn is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he checks and I check behind. The river is a brick and it goes bet-call. Why did I check behind here with trips? Is my hand good?


Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know but I don't like it /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[LoaferGee12]

I guess the only reason I can think of is that his sudden check is him getting tricky with his boat.

[BluEsiNsOuL]

I agree, I never do table-select at this limit, maybe it will start to matter at 2/4, but I honestly don't think it make a whole lot of difference at 1/2.

1/2 does frustruate me every now and then, mainly because the swing is bigger dollar-wise, but the game is really not that hard to beat. You can still make a decent profit just playing ABC poker. You can also practise on almost every aspects of your game.

For those who beat .5/1 but yet to find your rhythm in 1/2, I'd suggest you to go ahead to clear a multipoker reload bonus, maybe the 500$ one, that gives you a 10K-hand target so that you will log in enough hands at this limit to see if you are actually good here. The bonus makes your try almost risk-free so you can stop worrying about the money.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
You know what...[censored] it. After these two SNG's are done I will sitdown at a 1/2 table for a few orbits to see what is really going on here (I have only played it once, ironically enough to see how they played so I could offer better advice). Hand of that session...

I raise AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and we take a flop maybe 5-way and for 10 small ones. It comes down J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I fire after a few check to me. There is one caller and then someone check/raises. I just call and the flop caller folds. The turn is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he checks and I check behind. The river is a brick and it goes bet-call. Why did I check behind here with trips? Is my hand good?


Interesting hands to follow, I hope.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to hear your reasoning on this hand, and was the flop c/r guy totally unknown?

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You know what...[censored] it. After these two SNG's are done I will sitdown at a 1/2 table for a few orbits to see what is really going on here (I have only played it once, ironically enough to see how they played so I could offer better advice). Hand of that session...

I raise AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and we take a flop maybe 5-way and for 10 small ones. It comes down J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I fire after a few check to me. There is one caller and then someone check/raises. I just call and the flop caller folds. The turn is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he checks and I check behind. The river is a brick and it goes bet-call. Why did I check behind here with trips? Is my hand good?


Interesting hands to follow, I hope.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to hear your reasoning on this hand, and was the flop c/r guy totally unknown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. I can't imagine why you took this line.

[Swax]

One other thing to consider is that jumping from 1/2 on party is probably a little tougher than on other sites because you were formerly playing on the lowest limit that the site allows, hence your getting the "try it out cheaply" people that you wouldn't get on a site that offers .05/.10.

1/2 on party is definitely a little tougher I think, but not because of tricky play, just lack of outright AWFUL play. I was beating .5/1 for just around 6 BB/100 over about 9K hands, and made the leap. After 15.5K hands, I'm beating 1/2 for about 2.7BB/100. And I'm not nearly as good as most of you I wouldn't think. Perhaps I'm running good, but I certainly don't feel overmatched ever.

[jakbse]

I have been playing poker online since April. I started off with 1/2 and made 9BB/100 over my first 2k hands. Then I had a few bad beats and went down to 0.5/1. Over 10k hands I have 2,6 BB/100 which is ok. Everytime I try to move up to 1/2 I start loosing, this month I cleared a $100 bonus at intertops on 1/2, lost $70 over 1.000 hands which made a net profit of $30. Horrible. I think 0.5/1 is boring, there's often no way you can protect your hands, little to none blind stealing, often maniacs or calling stations, destroying my poker skills even though I win from them. I don't know what to do really. I don't seem to be a winning player at 1/2 which on the other hand is fun, and 0.5/1 is just boring and uninteresting, I keep getting this feeling that the moeny are so small that I don't care if I win or loose. I think I have a net profit from poker of about $500. Maybe I should invest it in 1/2, either I loose it all, or I finally start beating that bloody game.

Anyway after some bonuswhoring the last couple of months I think I need a break from poker and hopefully I get a better idea of how to continue meanwhile.

I'm quite sure if why I'm not beating 1/2. I don't have a problem to play TA and I believe I'm skilled enough to do the correct play considering pot odds and pot equity. The problem I have is to choose the right hands to push considering the texture of the board and hand reading and what to expect from different kind of players. Anyone have an idea of how to develop these skills? An idea of mine is to forget bonuses for a while, play 1/2 but just one table and really focus on the other players whether I'm in the hand or not and keep doing this for maybe 1k hands. Could that be a good investment?

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
You know what...[censored] it. After these two SNG's are done I will sitdown at a 1/2 table for a few orbits to see what is really going on here (I have only played it once, ironically enough to see how they played so I could offer better advice). Hand of that session...

I raise AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and we take a flop maybe 5-way and for 10 small ones. It comes down J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I fire after a few check to me. There is one caller and then someone check/raises. I just call and the flop caller folds. The turn is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he checks and I check behind. The river is a brick and it goes bet-call. Why did I check behind here with trips? Is my hand good?


Interesting hands to follow, I hope.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

your hand is good here so often i think the turn bet is mandatory. i am curious to know if you are asking "Why did I check behind here with trips?" because you had another line in mind or if you mean "what the hell was i thinking".

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
I just feel like I'm getting man-handled by the 1/2 players. It seems whenever I make a play at a pot somebody was slowplaying a monster hand, and whenever I fold second pair the other 2 people in the pot were bluffing with overcards.

Anybody else get this feeling when moving up to 1/2, and does it go away?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think it is my calling to respond to these types of posts for some reason. probably because i empathize with you as i struggled a lot at 1/2 at first.

last time (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=3394218&Forum =,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=33 74077&Search=true&where=&Name=9099&daterange=&newe rval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Po st3394218) i was irked by the tone of the OP.

this time i have had more coffee so i will say, as nicely as possible:

IT'S IN YOUR HEAD.

either you are doing something wrong, or you are being affected by the new limit. so yes, it goes away, if you learn to play better or you get used to it.

by the way - you f[/i]uckers...could no one link to my "why is moving to 1/2 so hard" thread? would that be too much trouble!!! does no one remember!!! ( i keeeeeed, i keeeeed)

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]

I raise AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and we take a flop maybe 5-way and for 10 small ones. It comes down J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I fire after a few check to me. There is one caller and then someone check/raises. I just call and the flop caller folds. The turn is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he checks and I check behind. The river is a brick and it goes bet-call. Why did I check behind here with trips? Is my hand good?


[/ QUOTE ]
He wont call with a worse hand? Will check raise with a boat, free card wont hurt you much but may save you two extra bets?

Your hand is probably not good here, but is good often...

I'd bet river?

I suck and dont play 1/2, unknwon playing tricky makes it even harder.

look forward to reply, bet i learn something.

p.s. 1/2 ruined all my 15BB challenges, i was often bluffed out of pots, and called down by better hands :S Generally got owned.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and we take a flop maybe 5-way and for 10 small ones. It comes down J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I fire after a few check to me. There is one caller and then someone check/raises. I just call and the flop caller folds. The turn is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he checks and I check behind. The river is a brick and it goes bet-call. Why did I check behind here with trips? Is my hand good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain's turn check (after check-raising the flop) means one of two things:

1. He's scared of the pair of Js on board.
2. The J helped him and he's getting tricky.

In neither case is it necessarily a good idea to bet the turn. In case (1), villain may very well fold to a turn bet, but if you show weakness by checking behind you might induce a bluff on the river or at least persuade villain that your hand isn't *that* good so he'll call a river bet even though he wasn't calling a turn bet. In case (2), betting the turn is a mistake for more obvious reasons.

Now villain comes out betting on the river. There are three possible holdings for villain:

1. A bluff. Not likely given the earlier play, but not inconceivable either. Raising the river doesn't accomplish anything in this case.

2. A made hand that you beat. It's possible that villain c/r'd the flop with just a weaker J than yours, got "tricky" with his "lock hand" on the turn, and now wants to get paid on the river. Raising the river is good if this is what is happening.

3. Villain has you beat. A flopped two pair or set definitely fits villain's flop action. It's also the sort of hand that improved so much on the turn that he wanted to give you a chance to catch up and/or get you to pay off a river bet. Raising the river is a spew in this case.

I guess Brad is arguing that (1) and (3) are more likley than (2)?

Or maybe I'm just totally off-base. I'm not yet comfortable with "inducing a bluff" plays, although it something I'm working on.

[imported_The Vibesman]

I don't know, I started 1/2 about a month or two ago, and I just don't find it that much harder. Where at .5/1 maybe 10% of the players are good, at 1/2 it's 15%, or something, it's not that big a difference.

Matter of fact, when I started playing 1/2, my first impression was that the games were a bit looser than what I'd been playing.

I really think this is either psychological, small sample size, or maybe you guys were just red-hot on .5/1 and have cooled down.

[RatFink]

The biggest change I saw was that your leaks become more apparent. Simply because you lose some of the padding from .50/1.00 from more dead-money in multi-way pots that would allow pots you won to have like only 20% of your money in them. In 1/2 you see your money is more like 35-50% of pots you win. So where wild mega-agression might work in .50/1.00 it gets punished in 1/2 and you need to play smarter.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
or maybe you guys were just red-hot on .5/1 and have cooled down.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Dunno]

Agreed its just in ur head. if u beat the 0.5/1 you will soon beat the 1/2 to its not that hard, just give it time and cheer up.

GL man

[jrz1972]

There are a number of problems in this post that seem to be common for people who have just moved up and are struggling.

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing poker online since April.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you've been playing online poker for literally a few months. If you literally just started playing poker, it's not surprising that you're having a hard time beating 1/2. If you have some brick-and-mortar experience, you have learned by now that online poker is much tougher than B&M.

[ QUOTE ]
I started off with 1/2 and made 9BB/100 over my first 2k hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

2k hands is a weekend for me. Actually, I have had some Saturdays in which I have logged 2k hands. It is nothing, and your winrate over this many hands is totally irrelevant and completely meaningless.

[ QUOTE ]
Then I had a few bad beats and went down to 0.5/1. Over 10k hands I have 2,6 BB/100 which is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

2.6 BB/100 is a little low for that level, but it's okay. The problem is that 10k hands is nothing and you have no idea what your winrate is. If your standard deviation is 18 (like mine is), then the 95% confidence interval for your true winrate puts you between (1.0) and 6.2. You don't even have enough hands to know whether your a winning player at .5/1.

[ QUOTE ]
Everytime I try to move up to 1/2 I start loosing, this month I cleared a $100 bonus at intertops on 1/2, lost $70 over 1.000 hands which made a net profit of $30. Horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of us, and by "all of us" I mean literally every single poster on this forum, have had 1000 hand runs where we lost 35 BBs. That's not even a downswing. It's not even a bump in the road. I often literally do not even notice losses like this if they occur in the middle of a session.

[ QUOTE ]
I think 0.5/1 is boring, there's often no way you can protect your hands, little to none blind stealing, often maniacs or calling stations, destroying my poker skills even though I win from them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't know how to exploit maniacs and calling stations, you are grossly overestimating your poker skills. There *is* skill involved in abusing these people, it just (generally) isn't the skills involved in HEPAP.

[ QUOTE ]
I keep getting this feeling that the moeny are so small that I don't care if I win or loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm. So the problem isn't actually the maniacs and calling stations. It's that you're not paying attention and you're not focusing on making good decisions.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway after some bonuswhoring the last couple of months I think I need a break from poker and hopefully I get a better idea of how to continue meanwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea. Many of us have benefited from taking a break. I know I have.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I have is to choose the right hands to push considering the texture of the board and hand reading and what to expect from different kind of players. Anyone have an idea of how to develop these skills?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read and respond to threads in this forum. Read poker books. Play a lot.

[ QUOTE ]
An idea of mine is to forget bonuses for a while, play 1/2 but just one table and really focus on the other players whether I'm in the hand or not and keep doing this for maybe 1k hands. Could that be a good investment?

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, you haven't been paying attention before, but you think that if you can just force yourself to pay attention for 1000 hands that will change everything. Dude, you should be paying attention all the time. As a multitabler, this could be construed as "do as I say, not as I do" advice, but it sounds like I get better reads than you do despite even when we're both playing multiple tables.

You need to realize that you're still kind of a rookie at this, you probably haven't spent enough time reading to expect to crush 1/2, and you need to log more hands and take them seriously.

None of this is intended to be harsh, so don't take it that way. You need to change the way you look at poker if you want to develop into a long-term winner.

[deepsquat]

Re shillx's AJ hand: I have no idea why you took this line. Im not going to doubt you because you are a poker weapon but i think we get 2BB's here with the best hand here a very high% of the time by betting the turn and river or raising the river. This looks more like a play to save for 10/20 vs a player that may have some resemblance of a brain (rare at 1/2)..

[Bankuri]

[ QUOTE ]
You know what...[censored] it. After these two SNG's are done I will sitdown at a 1/2 table for a few orbits to see what is really going on here (I have only played it once, ironically enough to see how they played so I could offer better advice). Hand of that session...

I raise AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and we take a flop maybe 5-way and for 10 small ones. It comes down J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I fire after a few check to me. There is one caller and then someone check/raises. I just call and the flop caller folds. The turn is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he checks and I check behind. The river is a brick and it goes bet-call. Why did I check behind here with trips? Is my hand good?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would guess you were up against two pair or a set on the flop (JT is the most likely, J3 second). When the Jack hits the turn that two pair/set turned into a boat. You're probably in trouble but have some outs.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still making money, just less than I feel like I should be making. I've still got a REALLY small sample size though, so it's definetely too early to b complaining yet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Grr. Why do I feel like my time has just been wasted.

KO

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain's turn check (after check-raising the flop) means one of two things:

1. He's scared of the pair of Js on board.
2. The J helped him and he's getting tricky.

In neither case is it necessarily a good idea to bet the turn. In case (1), villain may very well fold to a turn bet, but if you show weakness by checking behind you might induce a bluff on the river or at least persuade villain that your hand isn't *that* good so he'll call a river bet even though he wasn't calling a turn bet. In case (2), betting the turn is a mistake for more obvious reasons.

Now villain comes out betting on the river. There are three possible holdings for villain:

1. A bluff. Not likely given the earlier play, but not inconceivable either. Raising the river doesn't accomplish anything in this case.

2. A made hand that you beat. It's possible that villain c/r'd the flop with just a weaker J than yours, got "tricky" with his "lock hand" on the turn, and now wants to get paid on the river. Raising the river is good if this is what is happening.

3. Villain has you beat. A flopped two pair or set definitely fits villain's flop action. It's also the sort of hand that improved so much on the turn that he wanted to give you a chance to catch up and/or get you to pay off a river bet. Raising the river is a spew in this case.

I guess Brad is arguing that (1) and (3) are more likley than (2)?

Or maybe I'm just totally off-base. I'm not yet comfortable with "inducing a bluff" plays, although it something I'm working on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great explanation by JRZ and exactly what I was thinking shillx was doing in the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain's turn check (after check-raising the flop) means one of two things:

1. He's scared of the pair of Js on board.
2. The J helped him and he's getting tricky.

In neither case is it necessarily a good idea to bet the turn. In case (1), villain may very well fold to a turn bet, but if you show weakness by checking behind you might induce a bluff on the river or at least persuade villain that your hand isn't *that* good so he'll call a river bet even though he wasn't calling a turn bet. In case (2), betting the turn is a mistake for more obvious reasons.

Now villain comes out betting on the river. There are three possible holdings for villain:

1. A bluff. Not likely given the earlier play, but not inconceivable either. Raising the river doesn't accomplish anything in this case.

2. A made hand that you beat. It's possible that villain c/r'd the flop with just a weaker J than yours, got "tricky" with his "lock hand" on the turn, and now wants to get paid on the river. Raising the river is good if this is what is happening.

3. Villain has you beat. A flopped two pair or set definitely fits villain's flop action. It's also the sort of hand that improved so much on the turn that he wanted to give you a chance to catch up and/or get you to pay off a river bet. Raising the river is a spew in this case.

I guess Brad is arguing that (1) and (3) are more likley than (2)?

Or maybe I'm just totally off-base. I'm not yet comfortable with "inducing a bluff" plays, although it something I'm working on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great explanation by JRZ and exactly what I was thinking shillx was doing in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you all are overanalyzing this and giving the villain way too much credit. It would be a big help to have a read on him, but assuming an average microlimits player, he could have a large number of hands. He could have a high pocket pair, but be one of those players who doesn't like raising preflop. He could have a low pocket pair, having missed the flop, and be betting for no apparent reason or be bluffing. He could have overcards and be bluffing, he might have a full house and have tried to check raise the turn.

With no reads on this opponent, I have 3 J's with an ace kicker, I'm betting and raising for value.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise AJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and we take a flop maybe 5-way and for 10 small ones. It comes down J /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I fire after a few check to me. There is one caller and then someone check/raises. I just call and the flop caller folds. The turn is the J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he checks and I check behind. The river is a brick and it goes bet-call. Why did I check behind here with trips? Is my hand good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain's turn check (after check-raising the flop) means one of two things:

1. He's scared of the pair of Js on board.
2. The J helped him and he's getting tricky.

In neither case is it necessarily a good idea to bet the turn. In case (1), villain may very well fold to a turn bet, but if you show weakness by checking behind you might induce a bluff on the river or at least persuade villain that your hand isn't *that* good so he'll call a river bet even though he wasn't calling a turn bet. In case (2), betting the turn is a mistake for more obvious reasons.

Now villain comes out betting on the river. There are three possible holdings for villain:

1. A bluff. Not likely given the earlier play, but not inconceivable either. Raising the river doesn't accomplish anything in this case.

2. A made hand that you beat. It's possible that villain c/r'd the flop with just a weaker J than yours, got "tricky" with his "lock hand" on the turn, and now wants to get paid on the river. Raising the river is good if this is what is happening.

3. Villain has you beat. A flopped two pair or set definitely fits villain's flop action. It's also the sort of hand that improved so much on the turn that he wanted to give you a chance to catch up and/or get you to pay off a river bet. Raising the river is a spew in this case.

I guess Brad is arguing that (1) and (3) are more likley than (2)?

Or maybe I'm just totally off-base. I'm not yet comfortable with "inducing a bluff" plays, although it something I'm working on.

[/ QUOTE ]

i see it.
on the one hand, people at this level like to checkraise things like 2-pair. but on the other (imho vastly more likely) hand, he has a weaker jack or middle pair so often and is also more than willing to call down with it...that makes the "standard abc" bet on the turn better.

[Matador225]

I moved up to 1/2 fairly recently and I can honestly say that it isn't 'way harder' at all- It's just a different kind of game. Once you adjust to defending blinds and the occasional tricky player you'll be fine. It takes a little time and practice but it is still easy to crush.

[@bsolute_luck]

this is a long post and figuring i won't offer much new i will say this:

part of moving up is to learn and move back down. i play 1/2 6-max and was winning at it and thought "these guys are easy, i'm moving to 2/4". and i got crushed! (yes bad cards and river suckouts blah blah), BUT i did learn more about value betting, that i don't have to have TPTK to win, and i really had to work on my hand/player reads (especially since i play at Titan and pokertracker doesn't work and their note-taking area is very small) but also because people bet draws, donked 2nd pair into preflop raisers, and c/r less than top pair.

i would have been stupid to stay up there and try to learn at those limits plus my bankroll was suffering BADLY (i was underrolled to begin with), HOWEVER, i was able to take what i learned and apply it to 1/2 and i'm realizing how many winning hands i was missing and my play is much better.

conclusion of the rant:
1. don't feel you have to stay up at that limit.
2. don't feel it is wasted just because you have lost a little bit.
3. ALWAYS be learning.

regarding shillx hand: i 3-bet the flop and go from there. no point in betting the turn or river at this point. we're only folding hands we beat unless he's calling with a busted straight draw or a T.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
He could have a high pocket pair, but be one of those players who doesn't like raising preflop. He could have a low pocket pair, having missed the flop, and be betting for no apparent reason or be bluffing. He could have overcards and be bluffing, he might have a full house and have tried to check raise the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

So if he has over cards, or a low poket pair, that 2nd J is going to scare him, he will probably fold to our turn bet. But if we check through, he may now be tempted to bet the river. Even if he has a high pocket pair, that 2nd J may still scare him into folding the turn. I still stand by this reasoning, but I would like to hear from Shillx.

[Jeff P]

I just want to echo a statement that others have made about 1/2. I find that it is much easier to find a good table on the 9-max tables than the full 10-handed tables.

Another piece of information that has been repeated many times, is that table selection matters, and seat selection matters. I used to just sit down at the first available table, and start playing. I look for people I've put on my buddy list. I will also pick out 4 tables up near the top of the average pot ranking, open PT and PAHUD, then go get a coke or something and let PT import the observed hands. If I find a table that looks good, I join the waiting list. Then, if the seat that opens up is not to my liking, I'll pass it up and wait for a better one.

[zephed]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villain's turn check (after check-raising the flop) means one of two things:

1. He's scared of the pair of Js on board.
2. The J helped him and he's getting tricky.

In neither case is it necessarily a good idea to bet the turn. In case (1), villain may very well fold to a turn bet, but if you show weakness by checking behind you might induce a bluff on the river or at least persuade villain that your hand isn't *that* good so he'll call a river bet even though he wasn't calling a turn bet. In case (2), betting the turn is a mistake for more obvious reasons.

Now villain comes out betting on the river. There are three possible holdings for villain:

1. A bluff. Not likely given the earlier play, but not inconceivable either. Raising the river doesn't accomplish anything in this case.

2. A made hand that you beat. It's possible that villain c/r'd the flop with just a weaker J than yours, got "tricky" with his "lock hand" on the turn, and now wants to get paid on the river. Raising the river is good if this is what is happening.

3. Villain has you beat. A flopped two pair or set definitely fits villain's flop action. It's also the sort of hand that improved so much on the turn that he wanted to give you a chance to catch up and/or get you to pay off a river bet. Raising the river is a spew in this case.

I guess Brad is arguing that (1) and (3) are more likley than (2)?

Or maybe I'm just totally off-base. I'm not yet comfortable with "inducing a bluff" plays, although it something I'm working on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a great explanation by JRZ and exactly what I was thinking shillx was doing in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you all are overanalyzing this and giving the villain way too much credit. It would be a big help to have a read on him, but assuming an average microlimits player, he could have a large number of hands. He could have a high pocket pair, but be one of those players who doesn't like raising preflop. He could have a low pocket pair, having missed the flop, and be betting for no apparent reason or be bluffing. He could have overcards and be bluffing, he might have a full house and have tried to check raise the turn.

With no reads on this opponent, I have 3 J's with an ace kicker, I'm betting and raising for value.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you. I never played 1/2 full much, and it was long ago. I would bet this at .5/1 and 2/4 full every single time. I am a little out of touch with full ring play though.

I wouldn't rule out villain holding a ten, not to mention a weaker jack, especially if he's unknown. Also, if we're behind, we still have a few outs.

Against:
-JT (3 combos), we have 3 outs to win, 2 to tie.
-J3 (3 combos), 6 outs to win, 2 to tie.
-TT (3 combos), 7 outs to win.
-33 (3 combos), 7 outs to win.

We are ahead of KJ, QJ, J9-J4, AA-QQ, 99-44, 22, AT, KT, QT, KQ, Q9, 98 etc.

99-44, J9-J4, 22 are probably not checkraising this flop, but it is still possible.

That leaves AA-QQ, KJ, QJ, perhaps AT, KT, KQ, Q9, and 98 as hands that are likely to checkraise our flop bet. Most of these are calling our turn bet.

AA-3 combos
KK-6
QQ-6
KJ-4
QJ-4
AT-9
KT-12
KQ-16
Q9-16
98-16
(92 total hands here)
Pare down this list to whatever you think is appropriate.

There are a total of 23 top pair or better hands we beat.
21 second pair hands we beat.
KQ itself, which is a strong hand on the flop (OESD + overcards, which a TAG would probably raise), has 16 combos.
Q9 and 98 have 32 combos together.

I bet this turn, and call down after a check-raise. I don't think it's close.

[Shillx]

Okay I played some 1/2 last night and I was somewhat impressed with the level of play. I thought it would be worse. Actually I should say that the preflop play seemed decent but the postflop play was poor.

As for the hand I presented:

Let's say that you bet a flush draw on the flop (say Q73) and you get a few callers. What is the best card (you miss the flush) for you to bet again on 4th? A queen. When he checks the paired top card, it is tough to put him on a bluff or semi-bluff. If I don't have a jack, it will be very hard for me to call here so something is up when he checks this card. This was my thought process at the time.

Anyway I probably should have bet and paid it all off. It was just one of those spots that you see such as when a PFR checks behind on a flop. You just know that he has something good. He had TT and MHWNG.

Brad

[zephed]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay I played some 1/2 last night and I was somewhat impressed with the level of play. I thought it would be worse. Actually I should say that the preflop play seemed decent but the postflop play was poor.

As for the hand I presented:

Let's say that you bet a flush draw on the flop (say Q73) and you get a few callers. What is the best card (you miss the flush) for you to bet again on 4th? A queen. When he checks the paired top card, it is tough to put him on a bluff or semi-bluff. If I don't have a jack, it will be very hard for me to call here so something is up when he checks this card. This was my thought process at the time.

Anyway I probably should have bet and paid it all off. It was just one of those spots that you see such as when a PFR checks behind on a flop. You just know that he has something good. He had TT and MHWNG.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]
Ha, yeah, I know what you mean. Especially when a lag pulls it.

I may have to reconsider calling down after getting check-raised, but I definitely see the river.