WSOP Circuit Las Vegas--where the frig is everyone?

[Quicksilvre]

Anyone else surprised that this tournament only drew 100 entries? All of the other WSOPC events seem to get 150-250, and since this tournament is in the backyard of many of the big gamblers, I'd figure the Vegas leg would draw a fairly big field. All of the prelims had tiny fields, too (less than 50 for one of the $2K NLHE tourneys).

Is there something going on, or is the tournament calendar just too saturated?

[sammysusar]

Borgata has a pretty good crowd on east coast. It just seams like people go to the WPT because they are always at the same time. I would have thought WSOP circuit would draw better crowds but i guess not.

[Kevmath]

From what I read on Jon Eaton's blog, Harrah's decided to do a really fast blind structure, because Johnny Grooms wasn't going to be TD for this series of events. Maybe running back to back 2k events on the weekend wasn't a great idea either.

As an example of blind structures, for the ME, the original idea was to go from 300/600, 500/1000, 1000/2000 in 3 levels. They did decide to add in 400/800, 600/1200, and 800/1600 sometime after the event started.

Another point, Harrah's was really cracking down on those players who don't have a treaty with the US regarding taxes. On Steve Hall's blog on pokerpages.com, he mentioned how they were hounding Gavin Smith and Evelyn Ng for unpaid taxes, and kicking them out of events until they paid up.

[Army Eye]

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Is there something going on, or is the tournament calendar just too saturated?

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Head-to-head with the Borgata event..

The tourney schedule was already getting bloated before this extended WSOP Circuit schedule. So yeah I'd say there's a saturation happening.

[Jedster]

Maybe people didn't feel like getting roasted by Norman Chad if you make the final table? Seriously, if you could choose to make the final 6 of the WPT or a WSOP Circuit event, which would you pick, purely based on the type of TV exposure you were going to get?

On the other hand, I would think that a sponsor would encourage their sponsored pro to go to the event with a smaller field (ergo a higher chance of getting their logo on TV). That of course assumes that both shows get similar ratings and I have no idea whether or not that is the case...

[Jedster]

Ah -- I just saw on Negreanu's blog that the tournament was not televised. So there's proof that people WANT to be made fun of by Norman Chad.

[lighterjobs]

taxes are so overrated.

no one wants to pay those, man.

[lighterjobs]

from steve hall's blog:

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The winner of todays final table was Robert Bright , the man who bought himself and his friends into

the $50k Plaza tournament as a birthday treat , earlier in the year . Robert did not receive a ring as

Harrahs staff had lost the key to the draw where the rings are stored . Not too Bright .


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harrah's is doing everything right.

[Kevmath]

Borgata's WPT ME starts on Monday, the Harrah's event ends on Friday. Plenty of time for him to get to AC.

[tpir90036]

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Is there something going on, or is the tournament calendar just too saturated?

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It absolutely is. With the WSOPC expanding to 13 events, the WPT, and some other odds and ends like the US Poker Championships at the Taj.....it adds up to almost 30 5K+ (most being 10K) in 12 months!!

Take a look at the schedule for the Atlantic City area for the next six months or so:

Borgata Open - This Week
Taj Mahal US Poker Championship - Sept. 19th - Oct. 8th
Showboat Atlantic City - Nov. 28 - Dec. 9
Harrah’s Atlantic City - Feb. 7 - 17, 2006
Caesars Atlantic City - March 21 - 31, 2006

Yikes!! There is no way they can satellite enough people for those events to make them big enough that they are interesting for the tourney players. Especailly when you consider that there are WPT events going on during those months.

I think Harrah's is trying too hard. Sucks if poker dies out from people spreading themselves too thin. Too many tournaments. Too little time.

[dlk9s]

On top of the WPT and WSOP tournies going on right now, there's also the California State Championship. I saw a few big names on those tourney rosters.

[MicroBob]

California is the one Ben Affleck won last year if I recall correctly.

If you look on pokerpages.com you can see about a ZILLION different tourneys.
The EPT and other european tourneys too of course.


The saturation is significant.
I don't think it's going to be the 'death of poker' though.

some of the tourneys just will be less likely to survive.
But even in a 100 player field...are they really losing money on the event?
The dealers make minimum wage pretty much plus whatever is tipped (in the tourney as well as any side-games) and the floor and management make however much they make....and I assume they have the flexibility to send people home if they find they have an excess of personnel.


Also - if I recall correctly...Hellmuth mentioned in one his books that there was some big buy-in tournament at the Bike in 2000 or 2001 (pre TV boom) that got 12 players or something like that and then 2 or 3 years later that exact same tournament got 500 players.
Something close to those numbers anyway.


100 players doesn't sound like much but that's just because of the very large fields we get in some of the big one's these days.

5 years ago if you said that by 2005 we would have 25 or more tourneys every year of $5k-$10k buy-in and that each one would have AT LEAST 100 players and that some would have 300-600 players you would probably say "where on earth are all of those players with THAT much money going to come from?"
If I tossed-in the notion that the WSOP would have 45 total events including a main-event drawing almost 6k players and that there would also be a couple of events in the $15k and $25k range (Bellagio 5-diamond and WPT championship) and we would STILL get all the players to play the 25 'other' tourneys you would have said, 'Ummm....I don't think so retard. But I'd happily take a couple hits of whatever the hell it is you're smoking.'

[sketchy1]

David Plastik told me the structures were changed. They added the 25-25 level and a few others I believe. He said Max Pescatori told him that the play at the final tables was great.

These circuit events are brand new events. The Borgata is slightly established and draws real well. I think the players are just going to where the money is, and the WPT events are drawing well right now.

I think it has less to do with the circuit and more to do with who is running the events, and also how they are drawing. I think the 10k events will always draw 10 tables and a lot of professionals, no matter where they are, but you're going to see a lot more of this type of thing.

The WPT has an event at the Bellagio coming up in October that runs right around the same time of the WSOPC in Indiana. I wouldn't be too surprised if that event draws even less than this one.

I think the main factor though, is the fact that these are NON-televised events. I don't know exactly what happened but apparently ESPN doesn't have a contract for the new WSOPC events or osmething, and they are just doing very very light coverage of these events. No TV coverage = no field.

[sketchy1]

I guarantee you if it was purely a choice of which circuit to play, most would rather go to the WSOP than the WPT.

Up until this event, the WPT wasn't even allowing logo wear. That's one reason their events in Reno and Paris suffered such a bad turnout.

[sketchy1]

The last thing that's going to happen is poker dying. Anyone who thinks that doesn't understand the business.

Online poker is keeping live poker thriving. There's millions each year in satellites that are filling up these fields.

What will happen is the WSOPC will have to cut some events, along with the WPT. We'll probably see one 10k event every other week still, but it will be a much more condensed schedule compared to now. Also, I think the WSOPC is going to learn that scheduling their events literally days before or after other events is suicide. They should be staggering these events at least a week apart. They can't possibly fill up an non-televised 10k event without much satellite time.

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
Also - if I recall correctly...Hellmuth mentioned in one his books that there was some big buy-in tournament at the Bike in 2000 or 2001 (pre TV boom) that got 12 players or something like that and then 2 or 3 years later that exact same tournament got 500 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe he was referring to the Legends of Poker Main Event. There were 35 entrants in 2001, and about 700 this year--a 20-fold increase.

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The WPT has an event at the Bellagio coming up in October that runs right around the same time of the WSOPC in Indiana. I wouldn't be too surprised if that event draws even less than this one.

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See, I expected THAT one to get a bitty field. Before this week, I would've said 75-100 players, but if it's across the WPT, it might not fill four tables, or even three.

[Jedster]

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I guarantee you if it was purely a choice of which circuit to play, most would rather go to the WSOP than the WPT.

Up until this event, the WPT wasn't even allowing logo wear. That's one reason their events in Reno and Paris suffered such a bad turnout.

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It don't matter how big the logo is if the event isn't on TV.

[KDawgCometh]

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The WPT has an event at the Bellagio coming up in October that runs right around the same time of the WSOPC in Indiana. I wouldn't be too surprised if that event draws even less than this one.

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See, I expected THAT one to get a bitty field. Before this week, I would've said 75-100 players, but if it's across the WPT, it might not fill four tables, or even three.

[/ QUOTE ]


no, the WPT at the bellagio will draw well. Who is gonna go to Louisville Ky when they can stay at home and play in a much more prestigious event. I think one thing that we will see happen is that some of the ME's will cut down on the buy-in at some point, and the wsopc will have to stop having events going head to head with the WPT.

One thing the WPT will have to do is work on the blind structure some more so that we get more play so that we see the level of play that happened in season1

[MicroBob]

I think you underestimate the potential of a WSOP event in a new area to generate excitement.

All of your Cincy/Louisville/Indiana/Kentucky players in the B&M forums have already been talking it up big-time.
Lots of people from that area who want to play an event or two 'just like the WSOP' (or something like that) should have some interest in it I would think.

Fewer big-name pros will be there to be sure...but I think there will be plenty of satellite action for the main-event there and it will do better than people imagine.

Also consider that some southerners who were planning on going to the now cancelled event in Biloxi might head up to Louisville instead.

[Quicksilvre]

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no, the WPT at the bellagio will draw well.

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I was referring to the Indiana event. MicroBob, is there really that much excitement over the event? Not that I'm disputing you, I just figured that Indiana would be a comparative poker backwater. I didn't even know poker was legal in Indiana (unless it's on a reservation).

[WC64]

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I was referring to the Indiana event. MicroBob, is there really that much excitement over the event? Not that I'm disputing you, I just figured that Indiana would be a comparative poker backwater. I didn't even know poker was legal in Indiana (unless it's on a reservation).

[/ QUOTE ]

Riverboat gambling became legal in Indiana in 1993 and was placed under the authority of a seven man Commission.

Currently there are 10 operating riverboat casinos in Indiana; an eleventh is allowed, by statute, in Orange County but was unsupported by the US Army Corp of Engineers for years. A man made lake will have to be constructed since no body of water exists in the area.

After a 10 year battle, the Indiana General Assembly. ‘authorized the casino’, pending approval from county residents. In a referendum in November 2003, the casino was given the green light by county voters. The Indiana Gaming Commission has awarded the construction contract to developer Donald Trump. The new casino will be located between the towns of French Lick and West Baden Springs with the expectation that it will be completed in 2006.

In 2002, the Indiana General Assembly legalized dockside gaming and eliminated the need for cruise schedules, thus allowing patrons unrestricted access to the casinos.


The minimum gambling age in Indiana is 21.

[BarronVangorToth]

PokerNews (http://www.pokernews.com/news/2005/09/anyone-playing-circuit.htm) discussed this.


Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Quicksilvre]

Oofah. Thanks for the bonanza.