You make the play

[MRBAA]

You are in a full ring game with players who, as a group, know how to play some but are very loose and overly aggressive. It's raised pre-flop about 50% of the time, and virtually every hand goes to showdown.

1)You have A-4 s and limp early. Three limpers and bb take the flop with you. Flop comes j-7-4 with one of your suit. bb checks, first limper checks, it's your action.

2) You have A-Qs one before cut-off. It's folded to you and you open raise. Older man who just sat down but seems loose passive from the little you've seen of him raises. BB calls and you call. Flop comes A-10-3 rainbow with none of your suit. BB checks, you bet, old man raises, BB folds and it's your action.

3) You are dealt A-K in late position and open raise with two limpers in. Blinds fold and both limpers call. Flop comes A-K-7, rainbow. First limper bets, second limper folds. It's your action.

Needless to say, I'm not happy with my play (or results) on any of these hands, which all came up in a recent session. I'll be interested to see if my fellow 2+2 ers can do better.

[CrackerZack]

I'll start the answering and see how much I can embarass myself.

1) Even with the game being loose, I'd probably bet hoping to buy the button on future rounds. With the first 2 of 3 opponents checking to you its possible you have the best hand and if not, you have 5 outs to 2-pair, trips and the backdoor draw, if you get checkraised, see if the odds justify drawing.

2) I'd 3-bet and lead at the turn. If he 4-bets the turn is much harder but I may check-fold and I can't see him 4-betting anything you can beat, possibly another AQ but seems remote. You opened from the c/o which could be a rather wide range of hands, his three bet is narrower but being a button 3-bet after your LP open-raise, I'm not gonna automatically give him AK. I think the 3-bet will help you define his hand.

3) With a rainbow flop I think a slowplay could be in order. Opening LP he could put you on a king or weaker ace. There are people I play with sometimes that when they just call in this situation it sends off all sorts of warning bells, if you view yourself as one of those, raising, bet, bet may be best. But I don't think a slowplay in this situation is bad at all.

[Tyler Durden]

Hand One

I'd bet as a semi-bluff.

Hand Two

I'd call him down. I probably wouldn't raise again.

Hand Three

I'd call the flop bet and raise the turn.

[pudley4]

Hand 1: The players are "overly aggressive" and "virtually every hand goes to showdown". So a semi-bluff here has almost no chance of winning the pot immediately. A bet is also likely to be raised. Check and see how the action develops. It's probably ok to call one bet, but if it's bet and raised, then fold.

Hand 2: He's passive, but he 3-bets preflop, then raises again when an A flops. Is it worth another 2.5 BB to see his AA or AK? I'd still probably call him down since he just sat down and I know nothing about him /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Hand 3: The more aggressive the opponent is, the earlier in the hand I'd raise him. If he's super-aggressive, raise the flop. He'll probably 3-bet, so the plan is to call the 3-bet and raise the turn bet. If he's a normal opponent, just call the flop and then raise the turn. (If he's good enough to fold the river after the turn raise, wait until the river to raise.)

[lil']

1) From the game you described (loose aggressive and lots of raising), this looks like a pre-flop fold to me. You have a pretty weak holding on the flop and lots of opponents. Check fold, unless everyone else tosses in a bet, then you can draw one more.

2) If he is really passive, then you may be screwed. If I don't know a player well yet, I try to take things at face value. You bet the flop, more or less announcing that you have an ace, and he still raises you. Add that to the fact that he 3-bet pre-flop and you think he may be passive, and I would fold. Take whatever information you learn from the results of this hand and use it later.

This is all easier said than done. In real life I might make up some excuse to call him down.

3) I'm never crazy about slowplaying two pair, but this may be a time to do it.

Hope some of this was helpful!

[Munga30]

You are in a full ring game with players who, as a group, know how to play some but are very loose and overly aggressive. It's raised pre-flop about 50% of the time, and virtually every hand goes to showdown.

Okay

1)You have A-4 s and limp early. Three limpers and bb take the flop with you. Flop comes j-7-4 with one of your suit. bb checks, first limper checks, it's your action.

I wouldn't play A4s if there's been no preflop raise the last 3 or 4 hands. The odds are simply against you. Seriously, not a great limp if there's a good possiblity of a raise.

On the flop, the pot is small, so check and see. Free cards are great, and closing the action for one bet can't be too bad, especially if one or two will meet you at the river when you improve. It sounds like betting won't get everyone to fold, so the HEPFAP "bet if you would call anyways" advice doesn't help much.

2) You have A-Qs one before cut-off. It's folded to you and you open raise. Older man who just sat down but seems loose passive from the little you've seen of him raises. BB calls and you call. Flop comes A-10-3 rainbow with none of your suit. BB checks, you bet, old man raises, BB folds and it's your action.

It is hard for the passive old man to have AA, but that's what passive old men are supposed to have when they raise preflop and raise an A-high flop. He could also have AK. Nothing wrong with folding and letting someone else pay to verify your read in a later hand. I'd probably call him down if I though spending that money wouldn't tilt me.

3) You are dealt A-K in late position and open raise with two limpers in. Blinds fold and both limpers call. Flop comes A-K-7, rainbow. First limper bets, second limper folds. It's your action.

Raise. You are best very often, plus, you need to raise to cover your free card raises. I know, there's not much you could be drawing to, given your preflop raise, but they're not paying that kind of attention anyway.

[Bob T.]

)You have A-4 s and limp early. Three limpers and bb take the flop with you. Flop comes j-7-4 with one of your suit. bb checks, first limper checks, it's your action.


I didn't notice the guy with the gun in the back of my head making me play this. Let's assume I was online, and pressed the wrong button. Check and hope it gets checked through. If I improve with either two pair, trips, or a flush draw, I will bet or raise on the turn.


2) You have A-Qs one before cut-off. It's folded to you and you open raise. Older man who just sat down but seems loose passive from the little you've seen of him raises. BB calls and you call. Flop comes A-10-3 rainbow with none of your suit. BB checks, you bet, old man raises, BB folds and it's your action.


I assume the old man is in the button or cutoff. I think you may very well be drawing to a three outer here. Or you could be way ahead. I guess I call the raise, and pray that I hit my Queen on the turn. I think against most passive old white guys, I could check/fold on the turn, so unless I can come up with some other reason to continue, I would play that way on the turn.

3) You are dealt A-K in late position and open raise with two limpers in. Blinds fold and both limpers call. Flop comes A-K-7, rainbow. First limper bets, second limper folds. It's your action.


I call the flop bet, call the turn bet, and raise the river. If at any point he checks, I bet. If he raises, I am going to call, and then raise again on the river.

[MRBAA]

Thanks for the responses. Bob T., you outplayed me on every hand and I think your answer is right on the mark. The only place I'd question you is on folding A-4 s preflop. Because you so often will be called down when you hit your flush, your implied odds to draw are a little better. This tends to tempt me to play hands like this early in this type of game. But I agree -- folding might be better.

[CrackerZack]

" Older man who just sat down but seems loose passive from the little you've seen of him raises "

I'm surprised by the number of people that would lay down AQ with this information. If his read was more like "Older man who has been sitting there for 3 hours and is starting to resemble granite" 3-bets, and raises the flop, then I say lay this down immediately, but he just sat down, seems loose passive but what does that mean? That's he's loose passive or was dealt JTs one hand and missed the flush on the river, 98s on another and missed his open-ended straight and folded the river? With such a small sample size I'd have a big problem laying down TP2K on this hand.

Is this idea ridiculous or are people giving the read a lot of credit?

[Bob T.]

To me, the vast majority of old guys seem to fit into two categories. Tight old guys, who collect dust on their chips between excursions, and loose passive old guys, who limp in on a lot of hands. Both groups of players tend to be tight raisers, when I get raised preflop, and on the flop with AQ, there are two outstanding candidates for the hand that my opponent holds. AA, and AK. I think that before I choose to invest a couple more big bets in this situation, I am going to want more evidence that this player isn't one of those tight raisers. If the player seems more aggressive, I might want to call this hand down, but when so many of the old guys raise, it means, 'I got you sonny' or words to that effect, and in the end they usually do got me.

I think that part of the reason that so many people give a lot of credibility to this read, is that it fits so many of the players in this age group.

Even with a more aggressive player, this sequence usually isn't good news, if they didn't have much, they could have folded preflop, instead of 3betting, so you have to suspect that there is a very good chance thay you are behind here.

[Bob T.]

The only place I'd question you is on folding A-4 s preflop. Because you so often will be called down when you hit your flush, your implied odds to draw are a little better. This tends to tempt me to play hands like this early in this type of game

I know that a lot of people say that these hands are playable in early position in a lot of low limit games. This just isn't a situation, that I find easy to play, and so I choose not to. I don't know how many players will be in, I don't know how much it will cost me preflop, and besides a flush, there aren't that many flops that will make this an easy hand to play, especially giving up position. I think that this is one of those situations, that not playing might cost you pennies if it is wrong, but that playing will cost you dollars if that is a mistake.

[AceHigh]

"The only place I'd question you is on folding A-4 s preflop."

In a loose aggressive game this is a definate fold. In a loose passive game it's probably +EV.

[MRBAA]

I agree with Bob T. and Ace High -- I think this is a marginal holding and in this game there was probably too good of a chance for a raise to limp it early. You really want an ultra passive table to limp early. I would limp it late in an unraised pot with just two limpers (in addition to the blinds) in this game, because of the extra implied odds.