When it's obvious someone has made their flush . . .

[giant sand]

I think I was right folding this, but I'd be interested to see if anybody would call down . . .
No reads.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB

[JoshuaD]

I call down everytime with no reads. People bet and raise scare cards.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I call down everytime with no reads. People bet and raise scare cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leak.

[giant sand]

So you would fold, Jason T?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
So you would fold, Jason T?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have any read on this guy at all? A read doesn't mean you have stats on him. Had you watched his play at all? Anything that may indicate he's passive? Anything to indicate he's retarded?

The problem with that turn card is that it completed two draws, both a wheel and a flush draw. Not only that, but this guy is check/raising the pfr when there is a K on the board. You're only getting 8:2 on a calldown here. The texture of the 3/6 6m game is such that you're likely beat here. So if there is any indication that this guy is passive, a fold is prudent. If you have no such indication or you've seen him pull crap before or the last hand he was involved he lost a huge pot (he might be on tilt) or if you just started the session and anticipate to playing with the guy for awhile (make a note, don't form an image as a folder) then you can safely call down. What about your play, had you been bet/folding the turn? Did you just lose a huge pot? Anything to indicate someone might be taking a shot at you? If so, then you can safely call down.

The pot isn't huge, so saying "I call down everytime with no reads. People bet and raise scare cards." is a leak in my opinion.

There are situations where I'd call down here, there are others where I wouldn't.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
"I call down everytime with no reads. People bet and raise scare cards." is a leak in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif That's exactly what you said, just in more words.

[wackjob]

Very read dependant. So many players like to wait until the turn to raise with TP/GK and when a scare card hits it makes their raise even more profitable because of players who will just fold. I'd be very careful folding here all the time.. simply you will get run over by any half decent opponent who realizes he can just raise every scare card vs you HU and make a profit doing it.

[giant sand]

He had seen me raise pre-flop and bet on the flop and turn, so I figured he must have something to c/r on the turn.

Also, I've come to notice in 3/6 that people don't tend to make bluffs that often when c/r on the turn.

There have been times when I've over thought about this - along the lines of "he's bluffing on the turn and using the third club as a scare card", but I've called down in similar situations only to be beat.

Maybe at higher levels the c/r bluff on the turn is popular, but at 3/6 or lower I think it rarely occurs.

The players as a whole in this game were passive - very little 3-betting/capping going on.

Putting all this together, I think a fold was right

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"I call down everytime with no reads. People bet and raise scare cards." is a leak in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif That's exactly what you said, just in more words.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said you call down everytime. I'm saying there's more to it. Did you notice the turn completed two draws? Did you take into consideration the size of the pot? Are you aware of the texture of the 3/6 6m game? Anything else?

[ QUOTE ]
If . . . you've seen him pull crap before . . . then you can safely call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he pulled that crap before, I would say that, more likely than not, the next time the board is 3-suited his raise means he really does have a flush. Unless he is thinking to the 4th level or something ("he doesn't think I have a flush because I bluffed the last time board was 3-suited, so he thinks that I think that he thinks that I have a flush, therefore he's going to call my bluff"). Of course, many players online are idiots and the villain here could be some 55 year old horny mom who decided to get online while her 30 minute mpeg of lesbo porn was downloading.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"I call down everytime with no reads. People bet and raise scare cards." is a leak in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif That's exactly what you said, just in more words.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said you call down everytime. I'm saying there's more to it. Did you notice the turn completed two draws? Did you take into consideration the size of the pot? Are you aware of the texture of the 3/6 6m game? Anything else?

[/ QUOTE ]

I took all that into consideration, and said I call down in this hand every time.

I didn't say I call down everytime a flush draw comes in and an unknown raises me. I said I call this hand down everytime.

Do you really think I'm stupid enough to say "call down everytime the flush comes in and someone raises" ?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

I took all that into consideration, and said I call down in this hand every time.

I didn't say I call down everytime a flush draw comes in and an unknown raises me. I said I call this hand down everytime.

Do you really think I'm stupid enough to say "call down everytime the flush comes in and someone raises" ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you took all those things into consideration, why didn't you take the time to elaborate? How did your post help the OP understand the situation better?

I have no idea why you're taking this so personally. You gave an unelaborative statement on a common situation that gives people trouble. How can I know that you took all the variables here into consideration when you you wrote one sentence on an issue that deserves more time? I took the time to give my thoughts on the issue. It was not meant as an affront to your intelligence. I don't think you play stupidly but I do think that your reaction here is stupid.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I took all that into consideration, and said I call down in this hand every time.

I didn't say I call down everytime a flush draw comes in and an unknown raises me. I said I call this hand down everytime.

Do you really think I'm stupid enough to say "call down everytime the flush comes in and someone raises" ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you took all those things into consideration, why didn't you take the time to elaborate? How did your post help the OP understand the situation better?

I have no idea why you're taking this so personally. You gave an unelaborative statement on a common situation that gives people trouble. How can I know that you took all the variables here into consideration when you you wrote one sentence on an issue that deserves more time? I took the time to give my thoughts on the issue. It was not meant as an affront to your intelligence. I don't think you play stupidly but I do think that your reaction here is stupid.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with Jason. And by that I mean that I think verbose answers giving the thoughts behind our decisions are MUCH better than 1 liners. (Which I am guilty of as well)

Krishan

[tansoku]

[ QUOTE ]
Very read dependant. So many players like to wait until the turn to raise with TP/GK and when a scare card hits it makes their raise even more profitable because of players who will just fold. I'd be very careful folding here all the time.. simply you will get run over by any half decent opponent who realizes he can just raise every scare card vs you HU and make a profit doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like good justification to 3bet. Keeps you from folding the best hand on a scary board and costs the same as calling down if you fold to a cap because anything that calls here is not likely to lead the river and you can check behind.

If he’s too passive to raise a flush draw on the flop, then he’s probably too passive to raise the turn with a str8 for fear of the flush. Anyone aggressive enough to bluff/semi-bluff raise the turn here would very likely raise the flop with a flush/str8 draw no?

7:2 on the raise, so he has to have the str8 or the flush here about 70% of the time for it to be –EV. If he’s been aggressive I think the 3bet is correct.

Otherwise (assuming an average VPIP 40 type) I think it’s a good fold because there is a flush/str8/55 here at least that often, not counting the times he has a club and rivers the flush. Seems like every time I call a turn raise in a spot like this it’s never a bluff, of course my folds are probably perfectly coinciding with their semi-bluff attempts.

[baronzeus]

The main problem I see is that folding this every time (although may or may not be wrong at 3/6) will make you exploitable.

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea why you're taking this so personally. You gave an unelaborative statement on a common situation that gives people trouble. How can I know that you took all the variables here into consideration when you you wrote one sentence on an issue that deserves more time? I took the time to give my thoughts on the issue. It was not meant as an affront to your intelligence. I don't think you play stupidly but I do think that your reaction here is stupid.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not taking it personally, but your one liner response sucked even worse than my one liner post. /images/graemlins/grin.gif