10/20: what the hell is this?!

[Surfbullet]

"Villain" is a 23/14/1.81 TAG over 1307 hands. Somebody put him on a good range for me, I am clearly incapable of doing so with any accuracy.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Surf

[MarkD]

on the flop in no particular order (I would not be nearly this exact during the hand though)
56s
A7s
K7s
A4s
K4s
QJ
QT
Q9s

on the turn when he bets the range would remain the same pretty much as none of these hands are folding to the turn raise but you can rule out QJ

I don't like your turn raise.

[pfkaok]

I think the flop bet here is likely to be either a very strong hand (top pair or better), or maybe OESD. it of course depends on the player, but it seems like if he's got a mid sized pair, he'd CR the flop to try and protect it. betting into both usually means he's just trying to get more money into the pot.

either way though, the turn raise isn't too good as there aren't many hands the TAG will bet into both player on flop, then bet/fold on turn.

[JoshuaD]

I absolutely hate your river check.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely hate your river check.

[/ QUOTE ]

What worse hands are calling? What better hands are folding?

Surf

[Surfbullet]

Here's what had me so confused:

IMO the vastly superior play on the flop is to c/r with any 7, 4, or small PP. Checkraising gets a bet in from me when behind since I autobet this flop so often, protects his hand from the 3rd player, and he'll know he's beat if I 3bet him.

Why on earth would he bet the flop with a weak pair like that? It lets the 3rd player (who almost certainly has overs to his pair) in for cheap, lets me draw for 1 bet instead of 2, and allows me to get away for 0 bets from hopeless hands that I would have bet with (TJ? A2? 33?)

Maybe a Q would bet - now he doesn't mind the 3rd player in because it's much less likely to be overs, but again he's let me get off real cheap with hands he has crushed.

There are virtually no draws (56 only) so what the hell is this guy doing?

Anyway, villain had T/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/spade.gif and MHWNG. I don't know what's going on in the 10/20 anymore(if I ever did).

Surf

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely hate your river check.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for elaborating, I completely see your point

[JoshuaD]

OOPS. I thought hero had A/images/graemlins/spade.gifK/images/graemlins/spade.gif, I was completely flabergasted by his river check-behind. I thought he was afraid of the phantom of a full house, so I didn't think I needed to explain myself.


edit: I don't like your turn raise, No one folds to it. Call and raise when you improve, you get more money in when you're ahead that way.

[wackjob]

Just call the turn with 10 outs &amp; fold the river UI?

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
Just call the turn with 10 outs &amp; fold the river UI?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it was kind of a tilt-raise. I couldn't figure out what pairs he would possibly play this way (or strong hands for that matter) - my read was that he was on a draw or pulling a move, a turn raise will charge a draw and fold a bluff which would have at least 6 outs - calling + folding lets his bluffs/semibluffs succeed IMO.

Surf

[krishanleong]

This looks really really bad for the simple reason that the flop is monotone and completely unconnected. Save your ace high raises for board that there is a chance he'll be on a draw.

I call flop and fold turn. When I pick up the gutshot, I might call turn fold river.

Krishan

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks really really bad for the simple reason that the flop is monotone and completely unconnected. Save your ace high raises for board that there is a chance he'll be on a draw.

I call flop and fold turn. When I pick up the gutshot, I might call turn fold river.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your analysis. What do you think of mine - that virtually no pairs play this way?

Surf

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This looks really really bad for the simple reason that the flop is monotone and completely unconnected. Save your ace high raises for board that there is a chance he'll be on a draw.

I call flop and fold turn. When I pick up the gutshot, I might call turn fold river.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your analysis. What do you think of mine - that virtually no pairs play this way?

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it's a really horrible bet that looks in my mind like a set or trash. That said, if you want to look him up, I like a call, call, call better than raising the turn especially since a set could concievably play this way.

One of these days I'll write a post that addresses stupid people that play back at you when you don't have a hand. But the gist of it is, assume your opponent bets in that spot 100% of the time. If you fold to a bet in that spot, it's only really bad if your opponent has a +EV given ALL that hands you could hold. Not just the crappy one you happen to have this time. Cause sometimes you'll have a Q, and sometimes you'll have a pp.

But sometimes you have nothing and you need to fold.

Krishan

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]


I agree that it's a really horrible bet that looks in my mind like a set or trash. That said, if you want to look him up, I like a call, call, call better than raising the turn especially since a set could concievably play this way.

One of these days I'll write a post that addresses stupid people that play back at you when you don't have a hand. But the gist of it is, assume your opponent bets in that spot 100% of the time. If you fold to a bet in that spot, it's only really bad if your opponent has a +EV given ALL that hands you could hold. Not just the crappy one you happen to have this time. Cause sometimes you'll have a Q, and sometimes you'll have a pp.

But sometimes you have nothing and you need to fold.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to read an essay or theorom or whatever you plan to write on that...it's crossed my mind, too.

The question is, how low do we go? B/c here, I've got the best of the nothings - is 22 a calldown? b/c that's the same as AK except it has less chance to improve(and splits instead of loses vs an opps 22). Small PPs only improve us over other small PPs, which again woild c/r the flop. If we only call down with a Q we are folding too much - if only with a Q or JJ I would say the same. Thoughts?

Surf

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I agree that it's a really horrible bet that looks in my mind like a set or trash. That said, if you want to look him up, I like a call, call, call better than raising the turn especially since a set could concievably play this way.

One of these days I'll write a post that addresses stupid people that play back at you when you don't have a hand. But the gist of it is, assume your opponent bets in that spot 100% of the time. If you fold to a bet in that spot, it's only really bad if your opponent has a +EV given ALL that hands you could hold. Not just the crappy one you happen to have this time. Cause sometimes you'll have a Q, and sometimes you'll have a pp.

But sometimes you have nothing and you need to fold.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to read an essay or theorom or whatever you plan to write on that...it's crossed my mind, too.

The question is, how low do we go? B/c here, I've got the best of the nothings - is 22 a calldown? b/c that's the same as AK except it has less chance to improve(and splits instead of loses vs an opps 22). Small PPs only improve us over other small PPs, which again woild c/r the flop. If we only call down with a Q we are folding too much - if only with a Q or JJ I would say the same. Thoughts?

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I would get involved here with K7 or better. I would call down in this hand because I picked up a gutshot on the turn. Picking up extra draws is a good way to randomize your Ace high calldowns.

The idea I presented in the previous post is more applicable to the 66 hand where I would have folded to the flop cr.

Krishan

[sam h]

Looks like spewage to me, especially given that your opponent is on the less aggro side of TAG. I definitely do not agree that he can't have a Q here. I wouldn't play a Q this way, but lots of people with good stats do suboptimal things post-flop. Especially given that the hand was three way with no draws on the flop, I think your hand is good unimproved far less than the roughly 15% of the time you need it to be here to put in an extra bet.

Plus, get ready to throw up all over the keyboard when he three bets you on the turn with a set, another likely holding here.

[joker122]

the turn raise is something i did alot at 5/10, but at 10/20 it always seems to go wrong - either i get 3bet by a mediocre hand and i have to call because of outs, or they donk the river.

[Lmn55d]

the more I play 10/20, the more passive my play becomes. And the more I win.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely hate your river check.

[/ QUOTE ]

What worse hands are calling? What better hands are folding?

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think he sometimes calls your turn raise with a pair lower than Qs hoping that you have exactly what you have and are taking a free showdown but once you bet the river he realises you're not and folds?

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
the more I play 10/20, the more passive my play becomes. And the more I win.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is reassuring - because my play has become more passive also, in an effort to encourage bluff-bets...but my results have literally been breakeven for an astonishing # of hands.

Surf

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the more I play 10/20, the more passive my play becomes. And the more I win.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is reassuring - because my play has become more passive also, in an effort to encourage bluff-bets...but my results have literally been breakeven for an astonishing # of hands.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd kill for break even.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the more I play 10/20, the more passive my play becomes. And the more I win.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is reassuring - because my play has become more passive also, in an effort to encourage bluff-bets...but my results have literally been breakeven for an astonishing # of hands.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd kill for break even.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only break-even because I pulled out of the downswing(temporarily it seems). I'm pretty sure I've got you beat hands-wise.

Surf

[baronzeus]

i just dont understand the turn. I call the turn and fold the river UI. i also don't mind raising the flop against this specific guy, because i feel like he wouldnt lead with a Q

[w_alloy]

Pfkaok:

[ QUOTE ]
I think the flop bet here is likely to be either a very strong hand (top pair or better), or maybe OESD.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surf:

[ QUOTE ]
virtually no pairs play this way

[/ QUOTE ]

Krishan:

[ QUOTE ]
looks in my mind like a set or trash

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn anyone think this is reason enough to play a medium pair like the villian did? There are disavantages to it, but against a tag who will never put you on this hand, sometimes you wil get a wierd extra bet (as in this hand), incorrect calldown, or incorrect fold because they cannot read your hand. I think the good TAG's responses in this thread are reason enough to make this play... unless he doesnt know you're a tag.

If you use it enough, Tags will often start doing something standard (like folding or calling every time they dont get hit) which it is easy to take advantage of, especially those tags you see often. If they adjust well, which is rare in my expierience, you can just stop using it.

I donk flops against tags all the time with a wide range of good and bad hands, and (i think) it has worked very well for me. Do you guys think that this could be a good play, or am I just getting lucky (very possible)?

[timprov]

My initial impression is that he has Qx /images/graemlins/spade.gif or was making a move with crap that picked up a draw on the turn.

[timprov]

[ QUOTE ]

Why on earth would he bet the flop with a weak pair like that? It lets the 3rd player (who almost certainly has overs to his pair) in for cheap,

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if the third player has a clue. He has to know he's getting raised and 3-bet a good portion of the time here.

[Surfbullet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Why on earth would he bet the flop with a weak pair like that? It lets the 3rd player (who almost certainly has overs to his pair) in for cheap,

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if the third player has a clue. He has to know he's getting raised and 3-bet a good portion of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very stringent about table selection...I only prefer 1-2 players that have a clue at my table(myself included). The 3rd player was donksih and I don't think it would occur to him that he might get raised.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

Hey Alloy,

I definitely think mixing it up against a TAG with regard to flop donks is a good idea. However, betting out here is clearly a substandard line.

If he check-raises:
1) he gets an extra SB out of me from hands I would have folded
2) he gets to shut out the 3rd player and protect his hand
3) it disguises his hand strength and will often fold out a hand with outs.

Donking lets me get away cheap and doesn't protect his hand from the 3rd player. I could see an argument for it with a Q or some-such, it still doesn't sit right as a normal play though.

Surf