Finding out where you're at

[pergesu]

Okay so I think at first this hand looks pretty uninteresting. But let me show you something I do a lot, and find out if it's good, bad, or ugly.



***** Hand History for Game 2709059863 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:15724240 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Wednesday, September 14, 06:16:43 EDT 2005
Table Table 17602 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: nikkotfk ( $770 )
Seat 2: Cornbreadski ( $800 )
Seat 3: Nicassio ( $560 )
Seat 4: tuffer1 ( $935 )
Seat 5: rickyford ( $695 )
Seat 6: rwc1234 ( $1115 )
Seat 7: rkgamil ( $725 )
Seat 8: BillyTops ( $800 )
Seat 9: pattywack85 ( $800 )
Seat 10: tonngokhong1 ( $800 )
Trny:15724240 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to pattywack85 [ Th Ts ]
pattywack85 calls [15].
tonngokhong1 folds.
nikkotfk folds.
Cornbreadski folds.
Nicassio calls [15].
tuffer1 folds.
rickyford folds.
rwc1234 folds.
rkgamil folds.
BillyTops checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4d, Qd, 9d ]
BillyTops checks.
pattywack85 checks.
Nicassio checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
BillyTops bets [15].
pattywack85 raises [30].
Nicassio calls [30].
BillyTops raises [55].
pattywack85 folds.


There's no chance I'm betting that flop. It should be pretty obvious why I have 0 interest in my hand at this point.

It checks around, so I get a free turn. It's a blank, and considering the lack of action on the flop, I could have the best hand. But obviously it's tough to tell, and it's very vulnerable. So when he min-bets, I can do one of two things - figure my tens are good, and put in a nice raise to protect them. Or as I chose to do here, I put in a min-raise.

This does a couple things for me. First, it might get the player behind me to fold. If the original better has a Q, 9, high cards, or single diamond, he'll probably check to me on the river so I get a very cheap showdown. The other thing it does is give him an opportunity to define his hand...a min bet doesn't mean anything to me, but if he's got a flush he'll probably pop me back since he thinks he can get action, and I can easily let go of my hand. Or maybe he'll get cute and check-raise me on the river...in which case I of course check through.

This may be something pretty basic that everyone does, I don't know. Or it could be my very own donk move. Sklansky says over and over that you shouldn't raise if you'd hate a reraise..but in cases like this I kind of welcome a reraise because it doesn't cost me much to figure out exactly where I'm at. And sometimes it'll let me get to a showdown I otherwise wouldn't see. Thoughts?

[tshort]

I would fold to his min-bet. That might sound weak, but my goal in the early levels would be to preserve my chips for levels 4+. It is a $10+1 and I have no idea what my opponents have or are thinking, ever. I don't think it is worth making plays on small pots in early levels at this buy-in.

I do not think raising 30 will give you any useful information. Raising any more than that is risking too many chips early for a small pot. Assuming the BB folds, I think it is most likely villian will call/bet-river or raise in this situation. It is very unlikely both of the other players will fold to your raise, leaving you with a tricky river situation. If the villian calls and bets say 45 on a river that draws a blank would you call? I could see that as as situation where you lose 90 extra chips to QJ off-suit or maybe QT. I don't think your play is necessarily bad, but I think you are better off playing tight and preserving chips.

I usually raise TT PF even UTG. The flop might be worth taking a stab at with one check to you. You can't always fear a flopped made flush and it's possible no-one hit the Q. With a pot-sized bet (the pot is relatively small), the only single diamond that would likely stick around is the A or maybe the king. If I get raised - fold. If I get called, proceed with extreme caution.

[Freudian]

I think I would aim for a cheap showdown on the turn here. Call the 15 and fold to a raise. If the river isn't a too scary card call up to 50 or so, otherwise fold.

I too agree with the raise pf, although I can see a case being made for the limp in. On the flop your check gives MP a chance at the pot; which he doesnt take. So I can assume he has nothing remotely close to this flop.

The minbet on the turn by SB means alot of things IMO, he could be bluffing and trying to pick up the pot (although he has no idea that ppl don't fold to minbets), he could also have a 4,2, or low diamond and trying to semibluff, or he could have a monster and trying to slowplay as much as possible.

I personally hate to minraise myself, but I think it accomplished for you everything you needed to know.

So I guess my only gripe is the pf limp.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not think raising 30 will give you any useful information. Raising any more than that is risking too many chips early for a small pot. Assuming the BB folds, I think it is most likely villian will call/bet-river or raise in this situation. It is very unlikely both of the other players will fold to your raise, leaving you with a tricky river situation. If the villian calls and bets say 45 on a river that draws a blank would you call? I could see that as as situation where you lose 90 extra chips to QJ off-suit or maybe QT. I don't think your play is necessarily bad, but I think you are better off playing tight and preserving chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't put me in a tricky river situation at all. If he doesn't have anything, he probably checks the river and I get a free showdown. If he flopped a flush he may try to check-raise, but I check behind. And if he bets out I'm almost certain I'm beat - I have absolutely no problem laying it down.

Actually, the more I think about this, the more it's like a preemptive blocking bet kind of. Instead of betting out somewhere, I put in a small raise which may get him to check to me. If he reraises the turn or bets out on the river, I dump it. So this all gives me a shot at winning the pot while risking as few chips as possible.

[Jman28]

I like it. I've just started playing around with this move.

[mjm]

I have recently been putting in a lot more 'finding where I am bets' in positions like this...and my results have improved significantly (although too early to tell if related). However, I put in a 1/2 to 2/3 pot raise, I just don't feel the min-raise achieves anything.

[Cactus Jack]

Agreed. Min raises are worthless, except when the blinds are at or above 100/200.

I brought the idea of betting to find out where I'm at from playing NL ring games. This is a very common tactic with TAGs. LAGs are betting to win the pot. Fish are playing their hands. TAGs are playing your hand, which is why they use bets to find out how strong you are. It's a good play.

I've been working on another idea. I've always been a bet the potter. Betting the pot every time gives other players no information, whereas different size bets may, if you're overly consistent. I'm not worrying about this so much anymore, because frankly at this level they have no clue about betting patterns and have all they can do just to play the hand in front of them. So now, as the blinds increase and the size of the pot increases, I've been working on betting less than pot sized. I've been working on how much of a bet will cause them to fold. The pot is 600. Will 300 make them fold? Will 200 make them fold? Will 150 get callers?

Then, I'll work on what this means, as far as getting player info. I'm working on getting better at playing down the line with the information I've gathered earlier.

Does that make sense?

CJ

I agree with this.

I fold to his minbet and not even think twice. Your goal in limping preflop is to make a set, once that wiffed, don't even worry about what's going on. Even as an overpair, this early I'm playing it pretty weak.

OCW

[mjm]

In a reasonably sized pot, I think a 1/2 pot size bet is enough to find out if your opponent has a hand, I don't think the difference between a 1/2 and pot sized pot, really gives you that much more information, and costs you quite a bit more when they tell you they have a hand!