Paradise Masters Bubble Hand vs Gigabet

[Double Eagle]

From tonite's $200 Masters Tourney. There are 53 players remaining, with 50 getting paid, no real money until the top few places, with 22k for first. I have 29k and am sitting just outside the top 10. I was moved to Gigabet's table a few orbits ago and he has been very active, playing hard post flop (including a couple of uncalled river pushes) and is looking like he's taking advantage of bubble tightness. He's run his stack up to 50k and is 2nd in chips in the tourney. Blinds are 400/800 and will be moving up in the next 5 minutes or so. My image should be pretty TAG as I have only entered one pot at this table and that was when I reraised an early position raiser and Gigabet's call from the button and took the pot down preflop.

The table is 8 handed and 3rd to act I make it 2400 with ATo. All fold to Gigabet in the BB who (unsurprisingly) calls. The flop comes J93 two tone (I don't have the suit.) Gigabet checks and since I know he can easily check raise with air here I check behind. The turn is an offsuit Ace and he bets 5500, which is roughly pot size - I call. River is a four, no flush possible. Now he puts me all in for my last 21k. Am I beat or is he taking advantage of me on the bubble?

[ansky451]

[censored], thats a tough spot. I think the call depends on a few things. Does Gigabet know you are a tight/solid player? If he does, he obviously thinks you can laydown top pair, and his range becomes huge on the river push, and I think then its a call. On the other hand, if he thinks you are a random internet donk, who is incapable of folding top pair ever, then his range is pretty narrow, and its a fold I think. Usually I would call this given the circumstances, but I think it is close.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
From tonite's $200 Masters Tourney. There are 53 players remaining, with 50 getting paid, no real money until the top few places, with 22k for first. I have 29k and am sitting just outside the top 10. I was moved to Gigabet's table a few orbits ago and he has been very active, playing hard post flop (including a couple of uncalled river pushes) and is looking like he's taking advantage of bubble tightness. He's run his stack up to 50k and is 2nd in chips in the tourney. Blinds are 400/800 and will be moving up in the next 5 minutes or so. My image should be pretty TAG as I have only entered one pot at this table and that was when I reraised an early position raiser and Gigabet's call from the button and took the pot down preflop.

The table is 8 handed and 3rd to act I make it 2400 with ATo. All fold to Gigabet in the BB who (unsurprisingly) calls. The flop comes J93 two tone (I don't have the suit.) Gigabet checks and since I know he can easily check raise with air here I check behind. The turn is an offsuit Ace and he bets 5500, which is roughly pot size - I call. River is a four, no flush possible. Now he puts me all in for my last 21k. Am I beat or is he taking advantage of me on the bubble?

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, great post and incredibly tough situation.

i think i fold here and i stay aloud to myself, "giga, youre a mother-f'r" (because he has the balls to pull this move).

[billyjex]

I probably wouldn't be raising Giga's blind, really, because he can pull stuff like this.

But I call, I really think you are ahead here. You've shown nothing but weakness postflop and he feels you are not committed to the hand, and could very well be bluffing.

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
But I call, I really think you are ahead here. You've shown nothing but weakness postflop and he feels you are not committed to the hand, and could very well be bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I will be bluffing with this bet enough of the time to make the call very profitable. In fact, with all of my river pushes, I was bluffing every time, except for one.

[Exitonly]

Oh you crazy cat you Gigabet.

--

And to the OP you checked the flop becacuse you didnt want Gigabet to bet you off of your hand w/ air... so what were you hoping to catch on the turn to help your hand? If there are no cards that you think help you on the turn, bet the flop and take your chances w/ him raising you.

I probably fold here and wait for a spot that isn't so iffy.

[billyjex]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I call, I really think you are ahead here. You've shown nothing but weakness postflop and he feels you are not committed to the hand, and could very well be bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I will be bluffing with this bet enough of the time to make the call very profitable. In fact, with all of my river pushes, I was bluffing every time, except for one.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's profitable based on the action of the hand and how it was played out. To generalize with "all your river pushes" is stupid, because each hand is it's own.

I don't assume you're always bluffing because you're such an aggressive player. But hey, I have the same nick on Stars, just overpush that river with a big hand, I might call you with K high.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh you crazy cat you Gigabet.

--

And to the OP you checked the flop becacuse you didnt want Gigabet to bet you off of your hand w/ air... so what were you hoping to catch on the turn to help your hand? If there are no cards that you think help you on the turn, bet the flop and take your chances w/ him raising you.

I probably fold here and wait for a spot that isn't so iffy.

[/ QUOTE ]

From watching him play I thought that there was approximately zero percent chance that a continuation bet on the flop would take the pot down. Peeling a card seems like a pretty easy choice. Once I hit the ace I thought I probably had the best hand, but the action obviously scares me...

[Gigabet]

[ QUOTE ]
To generalize with "all your river pushes" is stupid, because each hand is it's own.


[/ QUOTE ]

I should have clarified, with all of my river pushes on the bubble in this tournament, there were a few in a very short span of time, I assumed that Nordberg had picked up on the "line" of play that I had been using. That is why I am generalizing all of the pushes together. You are correct in saying that each hand was independent of the others. It just so happened that a similar line played itself out in this particular hand.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I call, I really think you are ahead here. You've shown nothing but weakness postflop and he feels you are not committed to the hand, and could very well be bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I will be bluffing with this bet enough of the time to make the call very profitable. In fact, with all of my river pushes, I was bluffing every time, except for one.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a master

giga never ceases to amaze me

read that again...he is not at all responding to this hand or this tournament and is instead playing mind games with anybody who may read that (probably quite a few with Gigabet in the title of the post) and who will face him in a tournment in the future.

Darrel Dicken is the man

[Nordberg]

It wasn't me who played this hand (DE was playing on my account after the third break)... but there are a lot of reasons to raise here (more than the normal being aggressive on the bubble). First, I assume that I know more about Giga than he knows about me (which may be less true than I thought originally, based on the results). With that information, I know he is capable of making big plays near the bubble, making it possible to scoop a big pot with less than the nuts. I also have position...and finally its my opinion that challenging myself against good players in these spots is how to get better. Frankly, its more fun to play against Giga here than it is against most other players! Hence, this discussion.

I agreed with DE's play on the hand when he told me about it this morning...

[ QUOTE ]
I probably wouldn't be raising Giga's blind, really, because he can pull stuff like this.

But I call, I really think you are ahead here. You've shown nothing but weakness postflop and he feels you are not committed to the hand, and could very well be bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

[fnurt]

I think you just have to call here. When an aggressive player is running over the table, you can't sit there and wait for a monster before you're willing to take him on; that's exactly the attitude he's counting on, as he rakes in pot after pot.

[TheJackal]

I'd hate being in this spot. Improving on the turn to top pair when it's an ace is both a blessing and a curse, as he could easily have aces up. If it was me, I raise the turn and see what he does. This way you might not have to commit yourself on the river if you get reraised.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you just have to call here. When an aggressive player is running over the table, you can't sit there and wait for a monster before you're willing to take him on; that's exactly the attitude he's counting on, as he rakes in pot after pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with your post 100%, if not for the fact that there is just a few spots to the money.

If the post were reworded to indicate that the Hero was already in the money, then yeah, maybe this is good a time as any to take a shot.

But to risk going from what 15th(?) and a decent shot at a nice score, to completely out of the money, without a high degree of certainty, nope I can't buy it.

It is possible that the Villain is thinking one level higher. That is, Villain thinks that Hero thinks that Villain could be on a bluff, but in actuality Villain is betting for value with something like AJ, A9 or A3, or even a set. And, if Hero folds, then Villain still takes down a decent pot and if Hero calls, then Villain is likely to become the chip leader.

Just a thought ....

[durron597]

I beat Gigabet into the pot, for the reasons given in the OP, billyjex's post, and Gigabet's own posts.

And then I will type "are you f'n kidding me, the one time you have something..."

Gigabet's Shania is so wide here that you must call, even though he has you beaten sometimes.

[IndieMatty]

Hi, I'm just starting to study MTT/NL stuff. Is it so impossible to raise his turn bet?

This is no easy call that is for certain. Beating Gigabet into the pot here would be pretty wreckless without giving some thought about the logic behind his move. DE has just smooth called a strong bet on the turn. Gigabet has got to be putting him onm an ace here. I dont know gigabet as well as the posters here but I would put him on J9/A3 in this spot and fold. Gigabet would probably know that Nordberg is a knowledgable enough player to know that he can pull off a big move here and could be taking advantage of his own image against the one player at the table who might call him.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
This is no easy call that is for certain. Beating Gigabet into the pot here would be pretty wreckless without giving some thought about the logic behind his move. DE has just smooth called a strong bet on the turn. Gigabet has got to be putting him onm an ace here. I dont know gigabet as well as the posters here but I would put him on J9/A3 in this spot and fold. Gigabet would probably know that Nordberg is a knowledgable enough player to know that he can pull off a big move here and could be taking advantage of his own image against the one player at the table who might call him.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Gigabet knows that Norberg knows that Gigabet is aware of his image, thus this is a good spot for Gigabet to bluff.

[ QUOTE ]
But Gigabet knows that Norberg knows that Gigabet is aware of his image, thus this is a good spot for Gigabet to bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could be right. Like I said I don't know Gigabet but I think its the reverse. I cant see him betting both turn and river with a hand that loses to AT.

[rockythecat99]

I call here because I think he is bluffing here enough for the call to be profitable. The board is really not that scary at all. He puts you all in as I think he is putting u on a weak Ace and since ur not some fish and will think things through, you will probably put him on a strong ace. The way the hand has played out and how he is running the table over, I can't see not calling but then again I'm a fish. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[IMTheWalrus8]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd hate being in this spot. Improving on the turn to top pair when it's an ace is both a blessing and a curse, as he could easily have aces up. If it was me, I raise the turn and see what he does. This way you might not have to commit yourself on the river if you get reraised.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would seriously consider reraising all-in on the turn against a big-stack LAG if I'm playing at my normal buy-in level. Not only because I probably have him beat, but also to keep him off my back on future hands. And I don't want to outthink myself against a better player on the river. It sounds like Hero's priority is to make the final table, not to make the money, and this is a great spot to get some more chips.

I would love to get some feedback on this line.

As for the way it played out, that's a helluva decision, but I'd call.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you just have to call here. When an aggressive player is running over the table, you can't sit there and wait for a monster before you're willing to take him on; that's exactly the attitude he's counting on, as he rakes in pot after pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with your post 100%, if not for the fact that there is just a few spots to the money.

If the post were reworded to indicate that the Hero was already in the money, then yeah, maybe this is good a time as any to take a shot.

But to risk going from what 15th(?) and a decent shot at a nice score, to completely out of the money, without a high degree of certainty, nope I can't buy it.

It is possible that the Villain is thinking one level higher. That is, Villain thinks that Hero thinks that Villain could be on a bluff, but in actuality Villain is betting for value with something like AJ, A9 or A3, or even a set. And, if Hero folds, then Villain still takes down a decent pot and if Hero calls, then Villain is likely to become the chip leader.

Just a thought ....

[/ QUOTE ]

You just summarized the exact mindset that makes Gigabet's bluffs so profitable in this spot. Nobody wants to take the chance of busting out on the bubble, so they let him run over the table.

Top pair against a super-aggro player is a big hand. If this turns out to be the one time he has a monster, that's poker.

The people who are aggressive on the bubble win tournaments, and the people who think like the poster I just quoted end up with a few bucks' profit for 14th place. If you want to make correct decisions and win tournaments, you make this call.

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi, I'm just starting to study MTT/NL stuff. Is it so impossible to raise his turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
A raise would mean pushing. A smart LAG like Gigabet isn't going to call unless he has you beat, so you fail to win any more chips. By just calling you give him the chance to spew more chips on the river (which he will do a high % of the time with nothing), and the chances of a free card hurting you on that board are pretty low. So in the long run, calling him down will make you more money.

I'm curious what others would do if Gigabet checked the river.

[rockythecat99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi, I'm just starting to study MTT/NL stuff. Is it so impossible to raise his turn bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
A raise would mean pushing. A smart LAG like Gigabet isn't going to call unless he has you beat, so you fail to win any more chips. By just calling you give him the chance to spew more chips on the river (which he will do a high % of the time with nothing), and the chances of a free card hurting you on that board are pretty low. So in the long run, calling him down will make you more money.

I'm curious what others would do if Gigabet checked the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he checks the river I'm checking behind. He will not call with a weak ace here enough.

[Degen]

no way giga puts him on an ace and then doesn't make the move because of that

he posted a hand awhile back where he pushed the river with AAQxx board, and he said 'i was fairly certain he had AK'

gig had 3rd pair i beleive and it went a helluva lot like this one did...villain raised, gig called in blinds, called flop bet, bet into him on turn and then pushed river

lol, now that i think about it, it was exactly like this hand, this must be his MTT MO

I fail to see why everyone believe Gigabet will bluff this river so often. How can he not know DE has an Ace after the call on the turn? DE's range has got to be AT-AK in that spot. A smart LAG is not going piss away his stack here and he knows who Nordberg is. Against Nordberg I think Gigabet will be ahead almost all of the time on the river here. He might try to bully a weak tighty but since almost no one is calling that turn bet without a strong ace I think it would be very optomistic to believe Gig is bluffing here more than 10% of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
no way giga puts him on an ace and then doesn't make the move because of that


[/ QUOTE ]

This would make him very stupid, which he is not.

[SossMan]

if you are going to flat call the turn, you have to call the inevitable river push. It's almost like he's pushing the turn.

I actually like this line a lot vs. him. Raising the turn gets you nothing. You can't make a small raise on the turn and lay down to a push with your stack size. If you had a larger stack (like closer to his 50k), then I like a small raise on the turn.

His mindset has to be...he didn't raise me on the turn, so in the event he does have an Ace, his kicker must not be that big, so I'll let him make the big bubble laydown.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no way giga puts him on an ace and then doesn't make the move because of that


[/ QUOTE ]

This would make him very stupid, which he is not.

[/ QUOTE ]


lol

how long u been playin poker son?


good players don't call all their chips with one pair and a ten kicker unless they have a strong reason to beleive the other person has their whole arm in the cookie jar

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see why everyone believe Gigabet will bluff this river so often. How can he not know DE has an Ace after the call on the turn? DE's range has got to be AT-AK in that spot. A smart LAG is not going piss away his stack here and he knows who Nordberg is. Against Nordberg I think Gigabet will be ahead almost all of the time on the river here. He might try to bully a weak tighty but since almost no one is calling that turn bet without a strong ace I think it would be very optomistic to believe Gig is bluffing here more than 10% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should Gigabet be afraid of an ace? Not only Nordberg, but most of the posters in this thread, are laying down an ace here. His entire playstyle is premised on the understanding that most players are too tight on the bubble to call a push with just an ace.

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see why everyone believe Gigabet will bluff this river so often.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2415418&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

[ QUOTE ]
lol

how long u been playin poker son?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[ QUOTE ]
good players don't call all their chips with one pair and a ten kicker unless they have a strong reason to beleive the other person has their whole arm in the cookie jar

[/ QUOTE ]

This is beyond stating the obvious, but that does not meana good player can't make the wrong call. If my logic for folding is misunderstood then there is nothing more I can say to make it clearer for you.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
lol

how long u been playin poker son?


good players don't call all their chips with one pair and a ten kicker unless they have a strong reason to beleive the other person has their whole arm in the cookie jar

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely it cannot be a coincidence that you sound exactly like TJ in his incredibly weak-tight book. Gigabet is making all his money by trampling guys who think things like "oh no, I only have one pair, I can't possibly call him down," hand after hand after hand.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol

how long u been playin poker son?


good players don't call all their chips with one pair and a ten kicker unless they have a strong reason to beleive the other person has their whole arm in the cookie jar

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely it cannot be a coincidence that you sound exactly like TJ in his incredibly weak-tight book. Gigabet is making all his money by trampling guys who think things like "oh no, I only have one pair, I can't possibly call him down," hand after hand after hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

never read TJ's book, but from what i hear he says AA and KK are only PF re-raising hands and thats pretty much crap IMO, i'm not saying this is a fold...i really don't know what the hell i'd do right here...i'm just saying that there is sound logic in Giga's pushing there EVEN IF he puts OP on exact hand that he has...for the reasons u stated

[grandgnu]

I think the real question we should be asking is:

Why are you raising with A/T offsuit in such an early position at an almost full table?

And when you do get called by the only guy at the table who can bust you, why risk anymore chips without a monster? You are in zero danger of NOT making the money, your stack is very healthy. You can wait for opponents with less chips and take chances with them.

You have enough chips to cause significant damage to Gigabets stack, but he can of course eliminate you out of the money when you should be a sure bet to make the money.

While I agree that Gigabet could certainly be making a play, since even if he gets called on the push and loses, he still has plenty of chips, I think you're better off getting out of the way here.

[Nordberg]

No. I would not have laid down to the river. I am pretty much insta-calling because I don't care about the bubble and I know Giga's reputation. But I think he knew that I felt this way and that's why he pushed.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see why everyone believe Gigabet will bluff this river so often.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2415418&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

That situation is is completely irrlevent IMO. No way did his oponent have AK or even an Ace.

In the current situation DE will have an Ace 99% of the time.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
You are in zero danger of NOT making the money

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares?

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you raising with A/T offsuit in such an early position at an almost full table?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think on the bubble that's standard.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are in zero danger of NOT making the money

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares?

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you raising with A/T offsuit in such an early position at an almost full table?


[/ QUOTE ]

I think on the bubble that's standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I understand that it's better to take 1st place once and lose 19 times, than to "just make the money" all 20 times, I don't see how the Hero needs to go broke on this hand with top pair, weak kicker.

After the bubble breaks, you can feel free to take these risks. Let the players who are down to 3K in chips go out first, instead of tangling with a dangerous chip leader.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
In the current situation DE will have an Ace 99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is true, I don't think that ace is good all that often here.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I think on the bubble that's standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not into Gigabet, because there is a very close to 0% chance you're not getting at least called, and almost everyone is going to lose chips postflop.

FWIW, I said 'beat him into the pot' before I ever read a post, but it greatly depends on how much he knows about your game. I, playing on my own screenname, would've folded the turn*.

*edit: but I play differently vs. 2+2'ers and very differently against smart LAG's, and the way to beat a smart LAG like this is to get into pots with him only when you know he is drawing thin and *then* pull stuff like this. It helps if you make sure he can't put you on your hand, because you're playing completely the opposite way of how you've played all tourney.

[Nato76]

Wait. I thought the Paradise Masters was this saturday? Is there more than one of these tournaments? I won a seat months ago and I thought the tournament was on the 17th. Don't tell me I missed it.

[DonButtons]

I prob. would limp that hand preflop, giga is begging for you to raise preflop, so naturally I would do the opposite, I rather play a small pot and limp, ATo is just to good to fold though.

On the river, I just don't think giga would bluff with the ace out there. You fully represented it, raising preflop, checking behind on the flop, calling a pot size bet on the turn, and then his river line. I just think he has a big hand here or air. But Im putting him on a pure bluff here a less % of the time, especially with his image during the bubble.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
But Im putting him on a pure bluff here a less % of the time, especially with his image during the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see why everyone believe Gigabet will bluff this river so often.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2415418&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=all&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]

That situation is is completely irrlevent IMO. No way did his oponent have AK or even an Ace.

In the current situation DE will have an Ace 99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTY

[Double Eagle]

Would your answer change if you knew that Nordberg (whose account I was playing under) won $173k in the Party 750k Guaranteed on Sunday?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
Would your answer change if you knew that Nordberg (whose account I was playing under) won $173k in the Party 750k Guaranteed on Sunday?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, then it's an easy call, since you don't need the money

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
In the current situation DE will have an Ace 99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
For the sake of argument I'll agree with your 99% figure. The reason this thread exists is that both players know that DE is likely to have an Ace here and that Gigabet is *still* capable of pushing with air. If you can't see why the link I posted is relevant to this, then I don't know what to tell you.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
Would your answer change if you knew that Nordberg (whose account I was playing under) won $173k in the Party 750k Guaranteed on Sunday?

[/ QUOTE ]

We've already heard Nordberg say he would call. Then we've heard a lot of other people say that they would fold, because Giga knows that Nordberg is a good player, and thus he'd only make this play against Nordberg with a real hand.

The question is, is Nordberg incapable of realizing that he is a good player? Or is everyone else guilty of overthinking?

[Pat Southern]

[ QUOTE ]

I would seriously consider reraising all-in on the turn against a big-stack LAG if I'm playing at my normal buy-in level. Not only because I probably have him beat, but also to keep him off my back on future hands. And I don't want to outthink myself against a better player on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think thats a pretty poor line. Its the best way to win the minimum, while losing the maximum. Although there are a few draws out there, I'd guess that its way more likely that you are either way ahead or way behind.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason this thread exists is that both players know that DE is likely to have an Ace here and that Gigabet is *still* capable of pushing with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll go one step further and say that when Gigabet bets this turn, he will push on the river after he is just called with almost any two cards, and knows that Nordberg knows it.

That is why the decision on how to play this hand has to be made on the turn.

[fnord_too]

I call that with no regrets whatever he flips up.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reason this thread exists is that both players know that DE is likely to have an Ace here and that Gigabet is *still* capable of pushing with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll go one step further and say that when Gigabet bets this turn, he will push on the river after he is just called with almost any two cards, and knows that Nordberg knows it.

That is why the decision on how to play this hand has to be made on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly don't dispute the fact the Gigabet can push with nothing, but in the given situation against this particular oponent I believe it is highly unlikely.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I call, I really think you are ahead here. You've shown nothing but weakness postflop and he feels you are not committed to the hand, and could very well be bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I will be bluffing with this bet enough of the time to make the call very profitable. In fact, with all of my river pushes, I was bluffing every time, except for one.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a master

giga never ceases to amaze me

read that again...he is not at all responding to this hand or this tournament and is instead playing mind games with anybody who may read that (probably quite a few with Gigabet in the title of the post) and who will face him in a tournment in the future.

Darrel Dicken is the man

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he wants calls on the bubble? If I were Giga, and I were playing mind games, I'd say I'd flopped a set. If I were Giga and I was confident enough in the profitability of game and liked 2+2 enough, I'd say what I really had (set or not, I guess).

[Benal]

I'm guessing he made you fold?

[Double Eagle]

Why would you guess that?

[Benal]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you guess that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just another way of asking what you ended up doing.

[betgo]

I don't know if I should pollute this thread with results, but I saw this hand. This is the new Paradise $200/$100K daily 30 minute levels tournament, not the Masters.

Hero seemed like a good player who wasn't scared of busting out on the bubble.

The table was tight on the bubble, so I see nothing wrong with raising from 3rd position with ATo. There is a good chance Gigabet will defend his blind, so this might not be the best time. Your main objective is to take the blinds and antes, so I think you would be better off raising with a weaker hand against a different player. There were plenty of short stacks that just would not defend. I did not have a big stack, but I gained a lot of chips taking advantage of 3 weak/tight short stacks to my left and right. I think your big mistake was raising Gigabet's blind.

There were a lot high cards on the board, but it is hard to fold top pair heads up against an aggressive player.

Gigabet had J9o and flopped 2 pair busting out hero.

I also got busted out by Gigabet. The short stack to my left, who had been building my stack and those of the aggressive larger stacks at the table by not playing during the bubble, pushed from CO with 44 once the bubble was over and got called by TT.

So Gigabet was to my left. With the blinds 600/1200/100, it was passed to me in the SB with A4s and T17K. I guess no one wanted to raise Gigabet's blind. Willing to bell the cat, I pushed. Gigabet is supposed to be very perceptive about players, so he had probably figured out that I didn't need a monster. In fact, I had previously been to Gigabet's right at another table and stole his blind and the antes with a 11xBB SB push with 86o. Gigabet called with K9 and won the hand with trip kings.

If I had won the hand, I would have been in 10th place with a good shot at the real money. Gigabet went on to win the tournament.

[DonButtons]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But Im putting him on a pure bluff here a less % of the time, especially with his image during the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

?

The other hands were independent of this hand, and very different imo. Prob. not with a Ace on the board Im guessing. And after all this bullying, I doubt gigabet would try to bet this river without knowing he's being called like 90% of the time by a Ace. I doubt he's dumb enough to try to be overaggressive on a Ace high board.

Think about the action, hero raises giga's blind whose calling no doubt with any two. We assume his range is big aces, kq, pairs. When he checks behind on the turn, it seems like its AK, AQ, A10, and not AJ, and big pairs.

When giga pots the turn, and hero calls, he knows he has a Ace in his hand, and with his image for the bubble, no way he would push the river with air in my opinion vs him when he's getting called almost everytime by a ace unless he beats it.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
no way he would push the river with air in my opinion vs him when he's getting called almost everytime by a ace unless he beats it.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he's getting called almost every time by an ace here, then this topic would be 5 replies or less, if only for the 'gigabet' name being mentioned.

i'm giving giga credit for a much wider range here.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
When giga pots the turn, and hero calls, he knows he has a Ace in his hand, and with his image for the bubble, no way he would push the river with air in my opinion vs him when he's getting called almost everytime by a ace unless he beats it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gigabet may not know, but has a pretty good idea that, Hero has an ace before one ever hits the turn. When he bets, he has *something*...probably not always, but most of the time. That something does not necessarily beat an ace but everything he bets on the turn will be pushed on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
everything he bets on the turn will be pushed on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is nonsense. If that was true he would be incredibly easy to play against. I'm certain Gigabet has enough control to give up the pot when its obvious he is behind.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But Im putting him on a pure bluff here a less % of the time, especially with his image during the bubble.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

?

The other hands were independent of this hand, and very different imo. Prob. not with a Ace on the board Im guessing. And after all this bullying, I doubt gigabet would try to bet this river without knowing he's being called like 90% of the time by a Ace. I doubt he's dumb enough to try to be overaggressive on a Ace high board.

Think about the action, hero raises giga's blind whose calling no doubt with any two. We assume his range is big aces, kq, pairs. When he checks behind on the turn, it seems like its AK, AQ, A10, and not AJ, and big pairs.

When giga pots the turn, and hero calls, he knows he has a Ace in his hand, and with his image for the bubble, no way he would push the river with air in my opinion vs him when he's getting called almost everytime by a ace unless he beats it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.

Bad call pure and simple. The fact that there are so many callers on this thread indicate how good his river push is. I should have been more aware of my (Nordberg's) image and anticipated that he would use my lack of bubble fear against me.

It's been said before, but Gigabet plays Goot.......

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
Bad call pure and simple. The fact that there are so many callers on this thread indicate how good his river push is. I should have been more aware of my (Nordberg's) image and anticipated that he would use my lack of bubble fear against me.

It's been said before, but Gigabet plays Goot.......

[/ QUOTE ]

That's funny. Just a few posts I was saying that the number of FOLDERS on this thread proves what a good bet Giga made.

The logic is kinda weird, saying that Giga knows Nordberg will call, therefore you, not being Nordberg, should play better than Nordberg and fold. Of course you can always take this kind of thinking 1 or 2 or 3 levels more to reach any result you like. At the end of the day, the goal is to be a good enough player where Giga doesn't know if you would call or fold on the river, and thus becomes less likely to run a play on you in the first place (although he always has to be willing to run a play at least SOME of the time).

This also exposes how it is kinda BS to let people play someone else's account, not that anything can really be done about it, but still. Is it really fair to Giga if he makes a play based on what he knows about Nordberg, but it's really Nordberg's friend on the account, so he loses? In a live poker game you'd never have to wonder who you're playing against.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
This is nonsense. If that was true he would be incredibly easy to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? He'll rarely bluff vs. a thinking player after being called on the turn? Go look up half a dozen other Gigabet threads if his own post in this one isn't enough.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm certain Gigabet has enough control to give up the pot when its obvious he is behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not about whether he's behind or not. It's whether the mix of bluffs and legitimate (over)bets he is pulling off with these two barrels is correct enough to make him Sklansky bucks (along with the times the river is an 8 and his QT actually hits).

But anyone who knows how thinking LAGs like this play knows that you're gonna see him push almost every time on the river (he may lay off the bluffs on another ace.)

[billyjex]

Leaving out that you were playing under Nordberg's account in the original post, a known tournament player who knows Giga and Giga knows him, sucks. The whole hand starts to take on a "he knows that I know that he knows that I know" kinda thing.

[Kirkrrr]

If you know he's check-raising you w/ air on the flop, bet the flop and push his check-raise. He is not calling without a great hand himself as, at that point, you've shown nothing but strength and his calling range is far narrower than his raising range.

That has the huge added benefit that he'll stop [censored] with you.

Kirk

[Annulus]

I hate to get going on another subject, but why would you happen to be playing under norberg's account? I also think this is complete BS. After all the commotion lately of multiple accounts and teams, this is one more case. I just don't see anything good coming from playing someone else's account. Everything leads to some form of cheating in my mind.

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to get going on another subject, but why would you happen to be playing under norberg's account? I also think this is complete BS. After all the commotion lately of multiple accounts and teams, this is one more case. I just don't see anything good coming from playing someone else's account. Everything leads to some form of cheating in my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, I could care less if there were 27 people hanging around his computer giving him advice (most likely conflicting). My only issue with multiple accounts or people using different accounts is when they're all at the same table and able to share hand information (i.e. I folded a Queen so it's less likely that flop helped your opponenet, etc.)

But, that's a discussion for another thread, let's try and stay on topic.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
The other hands were independent of this hand, and very different imo. Prob. not with a Ace on the board Im guessing. And after all this bullying, I doubt gigabet would try to bet this river without knowing he's being called like 90% of the time by a Ace. I doubt he's dumb enough to try to be overaggressive on a Ace high board.

Think about the action, hero raises giga's blind whose calling no doubt with any two. We assume his range is big aces, kq, pairs. When he checks behind on the turn, it seems like its AK, AQ, A10, and not AJ, and big pairs.

When giga pots the turn, and hero calls, he knows he has a Ace in his hand, and with his image for the bubble, no way he would push the river with air in my opinion vs him when he's getting called almost everytime by a ace unless he beats it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why Gigabet can call raises with J9o. It doesn't take a genious to see that hero is likely to have an ace. Gigabet played the hand well and took advantage of his aggressive image.

Hero played good ABC poker. He had a good starting hand, so he raised. He made top pair, so he put his money in.

This whole thing shows why it was a bad idea to raise Gigabet's blind with a marginal hand. First of all, he didn't pick up the blinds and antes. Second of all, he wound up in a confrontation with a much better player with not that much better a hand.

My observation of Gigabet was that his play is more cautious than it seemed. It was pretty easy based on stack sizes, pattern of play, and reputation of players to tell who was afraid of busting out on the bubble. Gigabet knew that someone in 10th place is thinking of making the top 5 places rather than worrying about busting out on the bubble. He was bullying only the players who could be bullied.

I noticed that Gigabet twice wound up allin with 74o and 32o, when a short stack called or raised him. Partly he was playing the situation rather than the cards, but I also think he wanted people to see the trash hands for advertising purposes. He also open pushed UTG right after the bubble. There were some stacks with 20-30xBB. I assume he had AK or TT or something and was making a slightly EV+ push, but it may create an image of wild play.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to get going on another subject, but why would you happen to be playing under norberg's account? I also think this is complete BS. After all the commotion lately of multiple accounts and teams, this is one more case. I just don't see anything good coming from playing someone else's account. Everything leads to some form of cheating in my mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to contribute to the hijack, but...

Thats just ridiculous. He never said he was playing BOTH accounts, he just happened to be on his friends account. Have you ever had internet problems during a tournament, and asked a friend to take over? I sure have, and have done the same for him. I wasn't cheating, and neither was the OP.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Leaving out that you were playing under Nordberg's account in the original post, a known tournament player who knows Giga and Giga knows him, sucks. The whole hand starts to take on a "he knows that I know that he knows that I know" kinda thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It honestly did not occur to me that this was an important factor when I posted originally.

I played the hand in real time unaware of the effect his recent win may have had on Gigabet's perception of him and assumed that he viewed me as a typical weak-tight, exploitable player on the bubble.....

[Annulus]

playing a tourney under 2 different accounts is cheating to me. not sure if he did. but why is that all the top players share accounts? hmmmm , makes you wonder. i have never shared an account, nor do i plan to. anyways, carry on.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
It honestly did not occur to me that this was an important factor when I posted originally.

I played the hand in real time unaware of the effect his recent win may have had on Gigabet's perception of him and assumed that he viewed me as a typical weak-tight, exploitable player on the bubble.....


[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of who he thought you were, you have the 10th biggest stack of 54 remaining, and you raise his BB from early position. I don't see why he would think that.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]

Regardless of who he thought you were, you have the 10th biggest stack of 54 remaining, and you raise his BB from early position. I don't see why he would think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a good question and is probably indicative of some flaw in my ability to perceive my image, but the fact is that my thought procession went something like this:

"He's probably going to try and run me over."
"Yup, he's definitely trying to run me over."
"Ouch, I just got run over."

[Jason Strasser]

You just gotta make a read and call or fold. There are times you call this and times you fold this. Its the people that always call here because they have top pair and the people that fold here because they only have one pair which explains why gigabet is so successful.

I also think betting the flop is a good idea. Just because he can check raise you with air you decide not to. If you think he's check raising you with air make a read and stick your money in with the ace high.

This entire thread says a lot about the effectiveness of gigas style.

-Jason

[scott8]

A while back I posted a hand from Legends where I knew David Phan would check-raise my A-high flop bet and I bet anyway and then took the pot away from him on the turn.

This hand is another example of the many levels of thinking that can happen during tournament poker.

My initial thoughts are that you shouldn't get involved with a player of Gigabet's ability with marginal holdings unless you are willing/able to adjust to different scenarios.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
A while back I posted a hand from Legends where I knew David Phan would check-raise my A-high flop bet and I bet anyway and then took the pot away from him on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I remember that post. That was played great by you IMO.

[1C5]

what did he beat you with?

[Exitonly]

giga had J9 for a flopped two pair

or so said betgo.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is nonsense. If that was true he would be incredibly easy to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? He'll rarely bluff vs. a thinking player after being called on the turn? Go look up half a dozen other Gigabet threads if his own post in this one isn't enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't need to read Gigabets other threads. Without even knowing his history my immediate reaction was that this was a standard play with J9 from a good player. Most good players would have played the hand the same way Giga did. This is exactly how Giga uses his table image to his advantage and exploits people. In this hand after Nordberg calls he knows he has an ace. Since Nord raised preflop Any player worth his salt puts Nord on AT/AQ/AK here. So Giga knows he will be called on the river most of the time. There is no way he would push here with air.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm certain Gigabet has enough control to give up the pot when its obvious he is behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not about whether he's behind or not. It's whether the mix of bluffs and legitimate (over)bets he is pulling off with these two barrels is correct enough to make him Sklansky bucks (along with the times the river is an 8 and his QT actually hits).

But anyone who knows how thinking LAGs like this play knows that you're gonna see him push almost every time on the river (he may lay off the bluffs on another ace.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If everyone believe Giga would push this river regardless then his mind games are obviously working on you.

To be honest I don't think Nord's table image was much of a factor for Giga here. I play J9 the same way he did against most oponents, but for DE it was Giga's image that may have forced him to play the hand differently.

Isn't it interesting that the players in this thread who know Giga's history would still have called, but someone who didn't know him correctly put him on J9. That alone makes him a brilliant player.

[Nordberg]

I entered the tournament knowing that I wasn't going to be able to finish because I start work at 7am. I also need to sleep, and DE lives on the west coast so I asked him when I started whether he would be able to take over. Paradise has such bad structures normally that I thought it would be fun to play. I dont even think DE has an account on Paradise!

[ QUOTE ]
playing a tourney under 2 different accounts is cheating to me. not sure if he did. but why is that all the top players share accounts? hmmmm , makes you wonder. i have never shared an account, nor do i plan to. anyways, carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

[iMsoLucky0]

You, sir, have a ton to learn about poker.

[ QUOTE ]
You, sir, have a ton to learn about poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain this comment please.

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You, sir, have a ton to learn about poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Explain this comment please.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't speak for iMsoLucky0, but maybe it's your failure to see that the certainty with which you would have folded the river is exactly why Gigabet will correctly push with any 2 cards vs. most players. That and:
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest I don't think Nord's table image was much of a factor for Giga here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I entered the tournament knowing that I wasn't going to be able to finish because I start work at 7am. I also need to sleep, and DE lives on the west coast so I asked him when I started whether he would be able to take over. Paradise has such bad structures normally that I thought it would be fun to play. I dont even think DE has an account on Paradise!

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me be clear, I did make a comment about this aspect, but I don't think you guys were cheating or anything, I think this is an everyday kind of situation. I just wanted to point out that when you look at it from the other guy's perspective, it ends up being a little unfair if he makes a move based upon what he knows about you, but it goes badly because you're not really you at the moment. Just something to think about, but again, this is probably just a fact of life for online poker.

[paperboyNC]

[ QUOTE ]
Let me be clear, I did make a comment about this aspect, but I don't think you guys were cheating or anything, I think this is an everyday kind of situation. I just wanted to point out that when you look at it from the other guy's perspective, it ends up being a little unfair if he makes a move based upon what he knows about you, but it goes badly because you're not really you at the moment. Just something to think about, but again, this is probably just a fact of life for online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gigabet certainly can't complain. Read this from Zeejustin's blog:


This morning I woke up, surprised to feel fully rested. I was expecting to get woken up mid-sleep for the WCOOP. I wasn't sure what time it was, so I walked downstairs and saw Darrell (Gigabet) playing.
Me: Did I sleep through the WCOOP?
Darrell: Yeah, I played it for you.
Me: Oh
Darrell: You busted.
Me: Why didn't you wake me up?
Darrell: I did.
Me: Umm... ok.

And that was that.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You, sir, have a ton to learn about poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Explain this comment please.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't speak for iMsoLucky0, but maybe it's your failure to see that the certainty with which you would have folded the river is exactly why Gigabet will correctly push with any 2 cards vs. most players.

[/ QUOTE ]

The consensus here seems to be that he will be bluffing here far more often than he will beat AT which to me is completely ludicrous given the fact that a strong turn bet on a danger card has been called on the turn by the preflop raiser. Gigabet is clever enough to realise that on THIS board a call there is an indication of strength not weakness. The only hand DE beats here is a bluff. Compared to the most dificult folds I've seen this one doesn't even come close.

[ QUOTE ]
That and:
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest I don't think Nord's table image was much of a factor for Giga here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

You realy think Gigabet plays this hand differently against someone else? If he is playing against an unknown how do you think he plays it differently? Its a pretty standard play IMO. check top 2, bet the dangercard, and push the river when he knows his oponent has the ace. I play the hand the same way against a player I know nothing about because AT/AQ/AK is obvious.

[fnurt]

Your point is that it's an easy fold. But do you not get how the fact that it is an easy fold makes it a good bluffing situation?

[paperboyNC]

[ QUOTE ]
You realy think Gigabet plays this hand differently against someone else? If he is playing against an unknown how do you think he plays it differently? Its a pretty standard play IMO. check top 2, bet the dangercard, and push the river when he knows his oponent has the ace. I play the hand the same way against a player I know nothing about because AT/AQ/AK is obvious

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny how easy the fold becomes and obvious the hand is after we know what Giga had.

The early argument was that because everyone knows that giga knows that the hero has an ace, giga will therefore push with any 2.

Since we know that giga knows we have an ace, we have to fold. Because Giga knows we know he knows we have an ace, we think giga must think he can beat an ace so we fold.

But since giga knows that we have to fold, he doesn't have to have a hand. Therefore we have to call.

1st level: I have top pair, good kicker
2nd level: Giga is pretty sure that I have top pair
3rd level: I know that Giga knows what I have
4th level: Giga knows that I know that he knows

Yet, despite knowing that Giga knows I have top pair, I still have a very tough decision.

[Annulus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let me be clear, I did make a comment about this aspect, but I don't think you guys were cheating or anything, I think this is an everyday kind of situation. I just wanted to point out that when you look at it from the other guy's perspective, it ends up being a little unfair if he makes a move based upon what he knows about you, but it goes badly because you're not really you at the moment. Just something to think about, but again, this is probably just a fact of life for online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gigabet certainly can't complain. Read this from Zeejustin's blog:


This morning I woke up, surprised to feel fully rested. I was expecting to get woken up mid-sleep for the WCOOP. I wasn't sure what time it was, so I walked downstairs and saw Darrell (Gigabet) playing.
Me: Did I sleep through the WCOOP?
Darrell: Yeah, I played it for you.
Me: Oh
Darrell: You busted.
Me: Why didn't you wake me up?
Darrell: I did.
Me: Umm... ok.

And that was that.

[/ QUOTE ]

The integrity of online MTT's is an absolute joke. The worst part is that big name players openly talk about playing for others and vice versa. I mean lets be honest, these are teams playing poker. Lets call a spade a spade. Teams are taking over the online MTT world. Too bad these sites can't stop it either.

[jwombles]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You realy think Gigabet plays this hand differently against someone else? If he is playing against an unknown how do you think he plays it differently? Its a pretty standard play IMO. check top 2, bet the dangercard, and push the river when he knows his oponent has the ace. I play the hand the same way against a player I know nothing about because AT/AQ/AK is obvious

[/ QUOTE ]

It's funny how easy the fold becomes and obvious the hand is after we know what Giga had.

The early argument was that because everyone knows that giga knows that the hero has an ace, giga will therefore push with any 2.

Since we know that giga knows we have an ace, we have to fold. Because Giga knows we know he knows we have an ace, we think giga must think he can beat an ace so we fold.

But since giga knows that we have to fold, he doesn't have to have a hand. Therefore we have to call.

1st level: I have top pair, good kicker
2nd level: Giga is pretty sure that I have top pair
3rd level: I know that Giga knows what I have
4th level: Giga knows that I know that he knows

Yet, despite knowing that Giga knows I have top pair, I still have a very tough decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

MY HEAD HURTS. MOMMY.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's funny how easy the fold becomes and obvious the hand is after we know what Giga had

[/ QUOTE ]

I put him on J9 before I knew the outcome when Nordberg posted the hand on another site. I really believe you are overthinking what is a very basic hand scenario. Too many players in this thread are reading too much into gigabets table image which he uses masterfully not just at the tables but in this site with his very selective posts.

He would need Norberg to fold here over 50% of the time for bluffing to be the right move. That's an extremely optomistic expectation since Gigabet is a smart LAG who knows Nordberg always ignores the bubble

[paperboyNC]

[ QUOTE ]
I put him on J9 before I knew the outcome when Nordberg posted the hand on another site. I really believe you are overthinking what is a very basic hand scenario. Too many players in this thread are reading too much into gigabets

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay sorry. I didn't realize you had already made the read. I have found that in NL poker, river pushes are rarely bluffs. Often river pushes that lose are mistaken value bets. (Let's say that the river had been a ten on this hand).

Still, if you always play hands this way (calling off 1/3 of your stack and folding the river), you won't have chips for very long.

paperboy

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh you crazy cat you Gigabet.

--

And to the OP you checked the flop becacuse you didnt want Gigabet to bet you off of your hand w/ air... so what were you hoping to catch on the turn to help your hand? If there are no cards that you think help you on the turn, bet the flop and take your chances w/ him raising you.

I probably fold here and wait for a spot that isn't so iffy.

[/ QUOTE ]

From watching him play I thought that there was approximately zero percent chance that a continuation bet on the flop would take the pot down. Peeling a card seems like a pretty easy choice. Once I hit the ace I thought I probably had the best hand, but the action obviously scares me...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really an easy call.

-Scott

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I put him on J9 before I knew the outcome when Nordberg posted the hand on another site. I really believe you are overthinking what is a very basic hand scenario. Too many players in this thread are reading too much into gigabets table image which he uses masterfully not just at the tables but in this site with his very selective posts.

He would need Norberg to fold here over 50% of the time for bluffing to be the right move. That's an extremely optomistic expectation since Gigabet is a smart LAG who knows Nordberg always ignores the bubble

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis.

Anybody would have value bet the river with two pair. What Gigabet did that was cleaver was use 1) the fact it was pretty clear hero had an ace, 2) Gigabet's LAG image, 3) the fact the an allin looks like a steal with the threat of busting out on the bubble, 4) the fact that Gigabet had taken short stacks allin and shown junk hands, and 5) the fact that hero was not afraid to bust out on the bubble -- to deduce that an allin bet was likely to be called.

Anyone would have won a lot of chips with two pair versus top pair, but Gigabet used his skill and his LAG image to maximize the win.

[fnurt]

Well, the true skill involved is playing loosely, and then flopping 2 pair from the BB with a junk hand immediately thereafter. Of course, that's not skill at all.

Gigabet seems like an excellent player, but I don't want the adulation to get out of control. It's as if he had raised 3 straight hands and then picked up AA on the 4th hand, and we're congratulating him for getting paid off.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the true skill involved is playing loosely, and then flopping 2 pair from the BB with a junk hand immediately thereafter. Of course, that's not skill at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd suggest that the true skill involved is maximizing the payoff on that two pair. Betgo's analysis summed it up right well.

[blufish]

I'm sure Gigabet is a swell fella and all, but what amazes me as I lurk around here are the complete kiss ass suckups who worship these internet "heroes".

Grow a sack and play some poker.