Play Along: Tell me what to do with my aces [Archive]

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Moozh

09-14-2005, 02:23 AM

I think I might have butchered this hand.

Basic reads:

SB and BB are basic TAGs
UTG is loose (42/6/1)
CO is slightly loose/passive (27/11/.4)
Button just sucks in general but has been playing an aggressive game and is up a good amount at this table.

We'll skip ahead past the tedious parts...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, CO calls, Hero...

imported_CaseClosed326

09-14-2005, 02:29 AM

3 bet

dhaimon

09-14-2005, 02:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Button just sucks in general

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is Button with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

don't be so hard on yourself /images/graemlins/wink.gif

3-bet here.

bank

09-14-2005, 02:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

wackjob

09-14-2005, 02:38 AM

If everyone but villain folded I would try to get a raise in on the turn. Since you have all kinds of fish along for the ride and a drawy board, pump it on the flop.

Moozh

09-14-2005, 03:07 AM

Hmm, I have a feeling I should change the title to count the number of ways Moozh screwed up this hand. This aparently makes it one.

I just called. Part of the reason was because the pot was big and I didn't think I could get any opponents to fold. The main reason was that I figured that even if I did raise, the board was coordinated enough that a flop raise really wouldn't increase my pot equity nearly as much as a turn raise on a safe card.

I'm curious to hear how bad you think this is if you disagree here.

So I called planning to raise UTG on the turn...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero is very confused at how CO has played his hand so far...

wackjob

09-14-2005, 03:14 AM

You raise the flop not because you will protect your hand, but because you have the best hand and know you can get in a lot of bets. When that turn card hit, you should be raising, if he 3-bets you can figure he has made his straight and call since you will have outs to fill up.

jason_t

09-14-2005, 03:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I just called. Part of the reason was because the pot was big and I didn't think I could get any opponents to fold. The main reason was that I figured that even if I did raise, the board was coordinated enough that a flop raise really wouldn't increase my pot equity nearly as much as a turn raise on a safe card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise the flop for value, not for protection. With a pair of aces your equity won't change that much from the flop to turn; it's when you have a vulnerable hand like a pair of tens that waiting for the turn to protect and exploit a larger edge is better.

MrBig30

09-14-2005, 03:33 AM

I agree you should have 3-bet flop for value.
Now you have to raise turn to make it unprofitable for any gutshots to call and to charge a flushdraw the maximum. If CO has QJ you still have 10 outs.

billyjex

09-14-2005, 03:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero is very confused at how CO has played his hand so far...

[/ QUOTE ]

while you should have 3-bet the flop, if anything other than raising enters your mind here you are officially a big fat vagina.

Moozh

09-14-2005, 03:41 AM

Ok, so this is an embarrassing post, which is just what I deserve for being such a ninny.

Ugh, I thought for a bit (not very long) and just couldn't put CO on anything other than QJ. And I know that's really stupid because there's no way to narrow anyone's hand down to a range so narrow.

What hands would a solid player cold-call two pre-flop, cold-call a raise on a dangerous board on the flop, and then bet out into a big field that has shown aggression when the most scary card possible falls?

In the midst of this confusion, my inner ninny spoke up and said to me, "you still have outs to a boat if the board pairs, why don't you just call and you can raise on the river when you're sure you have the best hand?"

To my shame I listened and called. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Moozh

09-14-2005, 03:53 AM

So, hero has to raise here, right?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (12.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets, Hero

MrBig30

09-14-2005, 04:01 AM

Actually on the river a call is probably better /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Reason is you just want to win the maximum if you are best right? Best way to do that is probably to go for overcalls, especially since you are not sure you have the bettor beaten. Also you lose less if you are behind QJ.

jason_t

09-14-2005, 04:04 AM

Collects overcalls.

Moozh

09-14-2005, 04:20 AM

Ok good, I actually called the river too. Glad to see I got one part right.

It's strange looking at this hand because normally I seem to get myself into trouble by being overaggressive. I've been trying to lower my aggression levels for over a month now and have had trouble doing it. I think I just have a really bad feel right now for when aggression is appropriate and when it's more important to get to a showdown. Hopefully you guys will be able to knock some sense into me eventually.

Thanks for the responses guys.

Oh, and CO had 88. I missed out on a lot of money...

redbeard

09-14-2005, 04:25 AM

hell i'd probably even cap the turn like you said you have outs if you are behind and i doubt if you are. the co has been winning a lot and is probably playing a little loosie goosie at this point. i'd suspect him to have two pair often if he bets/three bets so why not cap the turn. if he leads into you on the river and you make your full house you can raise him and if he checks to you there then bet and call his check raise this hand is worth a lot still unimproved.

09-14-2005, 06:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
hell i'd probably even cap the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

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