109: 5 Handed, Huge Blinds....Re-Pop w/ 33?

[Degen]

Read is that everybody at the table is solid, including one 2+2er. This is the third chance he has raised my BB when folded to him in the SB. Previous two i folded.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

SB (t2015)
Hero (t1610)
UTG (t2260)
MP (t2190)
Button (t1925)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
[i]3 folds, SB raises to t1000, Hero????.

[lorinda]

If you play with them more than occasionally I think you should aim it in here and show them that you're not just going to let them do this for the next year or so.

Lori

[curtains]

I would call and hope to win. The blinds are just too high. Ive said this before in similar situations and been proven wrong by SNGPower Tools...so be careful /images/graemlins/smile.gif

What a weird raise. I push.

[deathpotato]

I pull a stop and go here, although a solid player will very rarely fold to it on the flop. At any rate, though, he's more likely to fold on the flop than when you push now.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
I pull a stop and go here, although a solid player will very rarely fold to it on the flop. At any rate, though, he's more likely to fold on the flop than when you push now.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can't stop and go as you're in position.
And any player with half a brain will call with ANY hand as you're putting 600 into a 2K pot (2600 to win/600 to call = 4.3 to 1 odds)

so, in closing, you just made a completely useless post.

I hope you don't play SNGs for a living.

[deathpotato]

[ QUOTE ]
you can't stop and go as you're in position.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right you are. I think this should probably be my last post for the night, as they're clearly declining in quality pretty quickly.

[ QUOTE ]
And any player with half a brain will call with ANY hand as you're putting 600 into a 2K pot (2600 to win/600 to call = 4.3 to 1 odds)

[/ QUOTE ]
If this were a button raise, and you did a stop&go, you could expect an occasional fold. The fact that a thinking player will always call you does not mean that you will always be called. How is pushing preflop any better than a stop and go, if this raise comes from the button? It is stupid to give up any folding equity you can muster.

[ QUOTE ]
so, in closing, you just made a completely useless post.

I hope you don't play SNGs for a living.

[/ QUOTE ]Why is there a need for this tone here? I admit my post was retarded, but it's 1:20 in the morning and I think my other posts tonight have been fairly decent. And don't get sanctimonious about my assuredly terrible results playing SNGs. Let me know if you want to compare spreadsheets.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you can't stop and go as you're in position.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right you are. I think this should probably be my last post for the night, as they're clearly declining in quality pretty quickly.

[ QUOTE ]
And any player with half a brain will call with ANY hand as you're putting 600 into a 2K pot (2600 to win/600 to call = 4.3 to 1 odds)

[/ QUOTE ]
If this were a button raise, and you did a stop&go, you could expect an occasional fold. The fact that a thinking player will always call you does not mean that you will always be called. How is pushing preflop any better than a stop and go, if this raise comes from the button? It is stupid to give up any folding equity you can muster.

[ QUOTE ]
so, in closing, you just made a completely useless post.

I hope you don't play SNGs for a living.

[/ QUOTE ]Why is there a need for this tone here? I admit my post was retarded, but it's 1:20 in the morning and I think my other posts tonight have been fairly decent. And don't get sanctimonious about my assuredly terrible results playing SNGs. Let me know if you want to compare spreadsheets.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ok, fine, if your opponet is retarded and folds X% of the time (Where X is greater than 0) then a stop and go is fine when it applies. However, I don't think any person is folding at the 100$ level.

And it's 4:30 in the morning here.

[Degen]

FWIW i think the % of time he folds to my push > % of time he folds to a SnG (if an SnG were possible...)

so nobody says this is a clear fold...

i posted this because another 109ing 2+2er was at the table and said, i beleive, 'gross, gross, gross push' when i pushed

SPEAK NOW!!!

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW i think the % of time he folds to my push > % of time he folds to a SnG (if an SnG were possible...)

so nobody says this is a clear fold...

i posted this because another 109ing 2+2er was at the table and said, i beleive, 'gross, gross, gross push' when i pushed

SPEAK NOW!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

There is not a single hand I would fold for 600 more into a 2600 pot.

[deathpotato]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW i think the % of time he folds to my push > % of time he folds to a SnG (if an SnG were possible...)

[/ QUOTE ]Really? I'm just going on memory, as I can't remember the last time someone folded to a push like this preflop, but I can recall a couple of instances of a stop and go working in similar situations. But fair enough. It probably makes a very negligible difference anyway.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I pull a stop and go here, although a solid player will very rarely fold to it on the flop. At any rate, though, he's more likely to fold on the flop than when you push now.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can't stop and go as you're in position.
And any player with half a brain will call with ANY hand as you're putting 600 into a 2K pot (2600 to win/600 to call = 4.3 to 1 odds)

so, in closing, you just made a completely useless post.

I hope you don't play SNGs for a living.

[/ QUOTE ]


deathpotato doesnt post much, but Id say he's clearly one of the most knowledgable posters (ie in at least the top 5, probably top 1-3) on this forum when he does. I don't say this often because I don't believe that most posters that this forum believes to be great players actually are. However deathpotato definitely knows what hes talking about.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I pull a stop and go here, although a solid player will very rarely fold to it on the flop. At any rate, though, he's more likely to fold on the flop than when you push now.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can't stop and go as you're in position.
And any player with half a brain will call with ANY hand as you're putting 600 into a 2K pot (2600 to win/600 to call = 4.3 to 1 odds)

so, in closing, you just made a completely useless post.

I hope you don't play SNGs for a living.

[/ QUOTE ]


deathpotato doesnt post much, but Id say he's clearly one of the most knowledgable posters (ie in at least the top 5, probably top 1-3) on this forum when he does. I don't say this often because I don't believe that most posters that this forum believes to be great players actually are. However deathpotato definitely knows what hes talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's so great. and i'm happy for him. that doesn't mean that he wasn't totally off-base on this post and I called him on it.

[deathpotato]

Calling me on my stupid mistake and saying "I hope you don't play SNGs for a living" are two rather different things, no? At any rate, it's late (early?) for both of us, I think we can forgive a few trespasses on each of our parts.

But on the topic of the AQo hand, really, look into ICM theory, it's very important to proper bubble play. It will make you money. Night.

Edit - and curtains, I think putting me in the top 5 on this forum would be a mistake, heh.

[curtains]

His post wasnt TOTALLY off base. The difference between calling and putting the $ in on the flop, and pushing preflop is exactly the same. Any play that will basically have the same exact result isn't totally off base.

In all honesty there may be a .05% chance that someone will fold postflop, as opposed to a 0% chance preflop, which may make a call preflop better. Of course I would just move allin, but to act as though he's a moron for suggesting his play is absurd. Please tell me why calling would be WORSE than moving allin?

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]

His post wasnt TOTALLY off base. The difference between calling and putting the $ in on the flop, and pushing preflop is exactly the same. Any play that will basically have the same exact result isn't totally off base.

In all honesty there may be a .05% chance that someone will fold postflop, as opposed to a 0% chance preflop, which may make a call preflop better. Of course I would just move allin, but to act as though he's a moron for suggesting his play is absurd. Please tell me why calling would be WORSE than moving allin?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was stating that his play of stop and go does not apply here.

Also, if someone has the ability to fold on any flop getting 4.3 to 1 on their money and they need to check first, then obviously calling is the superior play.

I thought playing 109s were hard because people had brains.

[tigerite]

Even if he's pushing (well ok, he's raised, but he's calling your push 100%) with the top 50% this is a +1% $EV move. So, yeah, easy.

It's basically EV neutral (+0.1%) even if he's raising the top 25%, considering this is 22+,A2+,KTo+,K8s+,QTs+ I think there's not even a question his range is looser.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Even if he's pushing (well ok, he's raised, but he's calling your push 100%) with the top 50% this is a +1% $EV move. So, yeah, easy.

It's basically EV neutral (+0.1%) even if he's raising the top 25%, considering this is 22+,A2+,KTo+,K8s+,QTs+ I think there's not even a question his range is looser.

[/ QUOTE ]

even if sb is raising any two, 33 has a +3% Equity.

[tigerite]

Well, no, it doesn't actually. But obviously the larger his range, the better the call (i.e. re-push and him call, but it's the same as if he pushed and you're calling, as I said before).

The EV if he's pushing any two is actually +2.0%, $EV this is, not chipEV, which you shouldn't be using.

[Shillx]

You are getting 5:3 here and you pretty much have to play. This is one of those spots where I would even be willing to take slightly the worst of it by ICM standards to avoid being stuck in an even worse situation later. Clear push.

Brad

[Chaostracize]

Ok. So I'm horribly wrong. Bleh.

It doesn't matter to anyone that with 33 he's going to be at best a coinflip?

Eh. Yeah, maybe the rest of the chips have got to go in...

I'm assuming there'd be no difference if the SB just moved.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
at best a coinflip

[/ QUOTE ]

A2, K2, A3, K3, 22

5 hands that i destroy that are within his range IMO /images/graemlins/grin.gif


Also, its not so much about the odds of winning the hand, its about the equity transfer if i fold and all that dead money in the pot. I'm getting a great price.


I liked it until I heard you say no bueno, but then these guys got me thinking its aikey.