A JJ hand

[Elaboration]

30+3 Tourney on Party Poker

Villian: t1050
Hero: t2300

blinds: 50/100

Folded to me in the CO with JJ and I raise to t300.
Villian in the sb calls with any A, any K, broadways, SC and pairs(fwiw I think he might re-raise ai w/ 77-88).


Flop comes A84 rainbow (t700)

sb checks, hero ?

Villian has t750 left after calling the pf raise.

I am relatively new to the table, but my read basically entails...
"-called big all-in reraise with KQo
-loose caller pre-flop
-donk"

Overly passive is not part of the read.

Thanks in advance.

[TheBlueMonster]

There's no right answer with those types of players. I would bet around 400..if he has the Ace you'll know pretty quickly.

[Elaboration]

*bump*

[DDBeast]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no right answer with those types of players. I would bet around 400..if he has the Ace you'll know pretty quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]
So are you saying bet 400 and fold for another 300? If this guy is playing that many hands It's likely that he doesn't have an ace and I'd just push him in on the flop.

[Elaboration]

[ QUOTE ]
So are you saying bet 400 and fold for another 300?

[/ QUOTE ]

This was part of my conundrum. I would not fold for another 300.

[ QUOTE ]
playing that many hands It's likely that he doesn't have an ace and I'd just push him in on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

but then he'd fold any non A hand that I beat.

[rockythecat99]

I think I check behind here. Hope a non broadway comes. I think he bets out with an Ace here if he is a donk like you mention. Hmm tough spot. I think he is going to put all his chips in the middle on the turn or river. I would call any non broadway turn push.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
30+3 Tourney on Party Poker

Villian: t1050
Hero: t2300

blinds: 50/100

Folded to me in the CO with JJ and I raise to t300.
Villian in the sb calls with any A, any K, broadways, SC and pairs(fwiw I think he might re-raise ai w/ 77-88).


Flop comes A84 rainbow (t700)

sb checks, hero ?

Villian has t750 left after calling the pf raise.

I am relatively new to the table, but my read basically entails...
"-called big all-in reraise with KQo
-loose caller pre-flop
-donk"

Overly passive is not part of the read.

Thanks in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard for me is to bet 2/3 the pot. Fold if he pushes, but it sounds like he would believe you and fold. I can't see myself calling a push from him.

Rep that A.

edit: On second thought, after betting ~400, I can't see myself folding to a push. If he has the A he sucked out, but having ~16 BBs after this hand isn't a terrible spot to be in either. Hopefully a 2/3 pot bet folds him. I also think pushing at him looks like a bluff, and he might call with a weak ace, but there's always a chance you get that to fold w/ a 2/3 bet.

Oh, and I don't like a check. I think a check just invites him to push basically any turn, or bet strong at least and then you probably have to fold. A check behind also allows him if he paired something to draw for two pair or a gutshot. I don't like giving free cards here, and I still think your best move is to follow up your PF bet.

[rockythecat99]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
30+3 Tourney on Party Poker

Villian: t1050
Hero: t2300

blinds: 50/100

Folded to me in the CO with JJ and I raise to t300.
Villian in the sb calls with any A, any K, broadways, SC and pairs(fwiw I think he might re-raise ai w/ 77-88).


Flop comes A84 rainbow (t700)

sb checks, hero ?

Villian has t750 left after calling the pf raise.

I am relatively new to the table, but my read basically entails...
"-called big all-in reraise with KQo
-loose caller pre-flop
-donk"

Overly passive is not part of the read.

Thanks in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard for me is to bet 2/3 the pot. Fold if he pushes, but it sounds like he would believe you and fold. I can't see myself calling a push from him.

Rep that A.

edit: On second thought, after betting ~400, I can't see myself folding to a push. If he has the A he sucked out, but having ~16 BBs after this hand isn't a terrible spot to be in either. Hopefully a 2/3 pot bet folds him. I also think pushing at him looks like a bluff, and he might call with a weak ace, but there's always a chance you get that to fold w/ a 2/3 bet.

Oh, and I don't like a check. I think a check just invites him to push basically any turn, or bet strong at least and then you probably have to fold. A check behind also allows him if he paired something to draw for two pair or a gutshot. I don't like giving free cards here, and I still think your best move is to follow up your PF bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that if villain doesn't have an Ace he folds, we make no money. Villain has an ace he pushes we call we lose our money. So either we make no money or we lose all our money. Checking induces a bluff which villain has shown capable of doing. We WANT middle pairs to push. If he hits a miracle card to outdraw us "thats poker".

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
30+3 Tourney on Party Poker

Villian: t1050
Hero: t2300

blinds: 50/100

Folded to me in the CO with JJ and I raise to t300.
Villian in the sb calls with any A, any K, broadways, SC and pairs(fwiw I think he might re-raise ai w/ 77-88).


Flop comes A84 rainbow (t700)

sb checks, hero ?

Villian has t750 left after calling the pf raise.

I am relatively new to the table, but my read basically entails...
"-called big all-in reraise with KQo
-loose caller pre-flop
-donk"

Overly passive is not part of the read.

Thanks in advance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard for me is to bet 2/3 the pot. Fold if he pushes, but it sounds like he would believe you and fold. I can't see myself calling a push from him.

Rep that A.

edit: On second thought, after betting ~400, I can't see myself folding to a push. If he has the A he sucked out, but having ~16 BBs after this hand isn't a terrible spot to be in either. Hopefully a 2/3 pot bet folds him. I also think pushing at him looks like a bluff, and he might call with a weak ace, but there's always a chance you get that to fold w/ a 2/3 bet.

Oh, and I don't like a check. I think a check just invites him to push basically any turn, or bet strong at least and then you probably have to fold. A check behind also allows him if he paired something to draw for two pair or a gutshot. I don't like giving free cards here, and I still think your best move is to follow up your PF bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that if villain doesn't have an Ace he folds, we make no money. Villain has an ace he pushes we call we lose our money. So either we make no money or we lose all our money. Checking induces a bluff which villain has shown capable of doing. We WANT middle pairs to push. If he hits a miracle card to outdraw us "thats poker".

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm perfectly happy winning the pot right there w/o further action. That may be weak tight, but w/ a smooth caller it's hard to ask for more. To me, this hand isn't about making money as it is winning what's already in the pot and not losing money. I still think you have a chance to fold a weak ace by betting out, which outwieghs the small chance that a weaker pp pushes the turn. I don't want to give him a chance to draw out for free on the turn, and I'm not calling a push on the turn after checking the flop.

I'd rather use my folding equity on the flop to win this small pot, than hope by JJ is good to his inevitable push on the turn (or bet, which we push, and he calls).

[Elaboration]

[ QUOTE ]
That may be weak tight, but w/ a smooth caller

[/ QUOTE ]

There was nothing smooth about this caller.

[ QUOTE ]
I still think you have a chance to fold a weak ace by betting out,

[/ QUOTE ]

No. He has 700 left at the 100 blind level. If he called off 30% of his stack with A rag I dont think he plans on check folding an A high flop. I mean, funnier things have happen, but...

[ QUOTE ]
and I'm not calling a push on the turn after checking the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough.

[AceofSpades]

Checking the flop is horrible. You're giving any king or queen a free shot at outdrawing you. If he has a pocket pair, your read said he'd probably push preflop with it.

I figure one of two things will happen

A. He's going to check/raise you for all his chips and he has an ace, or is bluffing

B. He's missed the flop and folding to a non-minimum bet

I'd bet the flop for about 200-400, if he pushes I would consider folding, or call if I think he's just making moves or desperate.

I think 70% of the time he will fold the flop when you bet.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That may be weak tight, but w/ a smooth caller

[/ QUOTE ]

There was nothing smooth about this caller.

[ QUOTE ]
I still think you have a chance to fold a weak ace by betting out,

[/ QUOTE ]

No. He has 700 left at the 100 blind level. If he called off 30% of his stack with A rag I dont think he plans on check folding an A high flop. I mean, funnier things have happen, but...

[ QUOTE ]
and I'm not calling a push on the turn after checking the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come to think of it, I've always been shaky about the term "smooth caller", I always thought it meant just calling when you have a good hand, could I get some elaboration, Elaboration? Also, generally what you mean by this comment too.

I mean, I guess I bascially see this hand as having two approaches, betting now in hopes of taking it down right now, or check/folding to the inevitable push/bet (which if he bets, you have to either fold or raise/push for the rest of his chips, I seriously doubt he bets enough for check/calling down to be a real option). On the flop, I see very little chance of getting a showdown for cheap, and I see those are really the only two viable options.

I'm personally inclined to take the first approach, because yeah, I've definatly seen idiots call PF and then fold. Villian could have called w/ a low pair, KQ, KJ, JT (though I realize a jack is unlikely), or sometimes just any two. People just don't like giving up their blinds to what looks like a steal.

This is an ugly situation to be in, but I think that I have to at least take a chance to take this pot right now, rather than give it up to a turn push.

[Elaboration]

[ QUOTE ]
This is an ugly situation to be in, but I think that I have to at least take a chance to take this pot right now, rather than give it up to a turn push.

[/ QUOTE ]

My basic contention is this.

If he has an A, he is not folding to any sort of cont. bet and he doesn't have enough chips to make me fold if he raises for his last 250-300 chips.
He could have many non ace hands that I beat that he simply folds to my bet, which I guess is ok, but I'm really thinking how nice his remaining chips would look in my stack if I do happen to be ahead.
If he had more chips the solution is easier..fire the continuation bet and get away from the hand if it's clear I am behind, but since I cant do that here, well, I think there could have been some merit to checking, but am not sure.

A check induces a bluff and thus maximizes value the times I am ahead.

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]
A check induces a bluff and thus maximizes value the times I am ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the same way. I would prefer to make this move with QQ, as there is only one card to fear. With JJ, i still check behind, and expect him to push the turn with 22.

...And if he had a small pair, and trips up on the turn, thats too bad (BUT HE STILL MIGHT HAVE CALLED ON THE FLOP)

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is an ugly situation to be in, but I think that I have to at least take a chance to take this pot right now, rather than give it up to a turn push.

[/ QUOTE ]

My basic contention is this.

If he has an A, he is not folding to any sort of cont. bet and he doesn't have enough chips to make me fold if he raises for his last 250-300 chips.
He could have many non ace hands that I beat that he simply folds to my bet, which I guess is ok, but I'm really thinking how nice his remaining chips would look in my stack if I do happen to be ahead.
If he had more chips the solution is easier..fire the continuation bet and get away from the hand if it's clear I am behind, but since I cant do that here, well, I think there could have been some merit to checking, but am not sure.

A check induces a bluff and thus maximizes value the times I am ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I would sacrifice winning those extra chips the times you are ahead, for the (albeit small) possibility he folds an ace, or some sort of strong draw on the flop. I don't want to give him a free card with which he completes a straight, or two pair. I think not giving free card+possible fold equity outweigh maximizing basically autocalling the turn (if I understand your post correctly).

[fnurt]

There are two possible lines here:

1) Push, and hope he doesn't have an ace.

2) Check behind, and hope he gives you some action on the turn.

Betting something like 400 is pointless because you cannot fold to a raise of only 300 more. Likewise, thinking there is any line that will get him to lay down an ace is pointless.

If you are ahead on the flop, he most likely has no more than 2 or 3 outs on the turn. That's a risk I am willing to take, so I check behind and call a turn bet if he pushes.

[Elaboration]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I would sacrifice winning those extra chips the times you are ahead, for the (albeit small) possibility he folds an ace,

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically you are advocating winning the min/losing the max v.s. winning the max/losing the same(max)?

[DireWolf]

[ QUOTE ]
There are two possible lines here:

1) Push, and hope he doesn't have an ace.

2) Check behind, and hope he gives you some action on the turn.

Betting something like 400 is pointless because you cannot fold to a raise of only 300 more. Likewise, thinking there is any line that will get him to lay down an ace is pointless.

If you are ahead on the flop, he most likely has no more than 2 or 3 outs on the turn. That's a risk I am willing to take, so I check behind and call a turn bet if he pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ding Ding, We have a winner

[FrogMouth]

You have just over 10bb, push PF to aviod this situation. In the CO it may look to some like a bilnd steal and you will get called by all kinds of stuff in a $30. Now that you in it, I can't see myself giving up here. If he has an ace, I'm loosing my stack. To maximize profits, check to induce a bluff from a smaller pair. You don't want to fold the hands you beat, you want them to bet.

[Elaboration]

[ QUOTE ]
You have just over 10bb, push PF to aviod this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 2300 and the bb is t100.

[FrogMouth]

Well that changes everything. Dyslexia kicked in!

What Fnurt said!

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have just over 10bb, push PF to aviod this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 2300 and the bb is t100.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, however, for the record: JJ is a good enough hand where if you actually did have 10 BB, I think it's worth taking a little risk for the chance of doubling up. Yeah, if you make a normal raise, you may feel stupid when his Q9 outflops you. But when you're on the borderline of desperation, I think it's worth taking that chance in order to entice a call, because if you only pick up the blinds you'll be right back in the same position next orbit, only without a hand as good as JJ.

[Jason Strasser]

Here's the thing.

You are really not getting away from this ever. Maybe you can bet 300 and fold to a raise from some opponents, but for the purpose of analyis I really think versus a majority of opponents you just cant fold here.

So if you get past that hurdle, you can do a little thinking.

If he has an ace oh well you are getting it in with 2 outs probably any way you play it.

Here's the other thing tho, and where I disagree with Fnurt:

[ QUOTE ]
Check behind, and hope he gives you some action on the turn.

If you are ahead on the flop, he most likely has no more than 2 or 3 outs on the turn. That's a risk I am willing to take, so I check behind and call a turn bet if he pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, so often in this spot betting is better than checking behind because I think the opposite of what Fnurt said. First of all if your opponent has a worse pair than you, I think you have more of a chance of getting money in on the flop than you would getting money in later. A scary other high card could come or kill your action, and also they may actually be more scared of your flop check than they would of a bet.

Also if you check behind there are hands like KQ and maybe a worse pair that will not call any additional bets unless they improve. In spots like this where its very hard to draw equity out of many hands and impossible to get best hands to fold, the one thing you can do is win the pot now versus hands that will only pay you off if they improve their hand and make a better hand than the one you have.

-Jason

[Elaboration]

[ QUOTE ]
he most likely has no more than 2 or 3 outs on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, the potential holding of KQ is not enough to disqualify a wawb line?

Thanks-

[fnurt]

What you say is true, but it's only one specific hand that has 6 outs. Considering he could hold a bunch of different hands in this spot, I don't think it affects the overall analysis much.

Strassa made a good case but I still think when the villain is short stacked and you check the flop, in general, he's going to smell blood and will be very likely to give you action. He could be right, though.

[Jason Strasser]

[ QUOTE ]
You have just over 10bb, push PF to aviod this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stare at this so hard until your eyes bleed or until you figure out why this is terrible thinking.

-Jason

[Elaboration]

[ QUOTE ]
KQ and maybe a worse pair that will not call any additional bets unless they improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do not think these hands push the turn in hopes I am scared of the A and will fold a better hand?

Thanks-

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I would sacrifice winning those extra chips the times you are ahead, for the (albeit small) possibility he folds an ace,

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically you are advocating winning the min/losing the max v.s. winning the max/losing the same(max)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. I think we both agree that at some point we're pushing on this hand (or calling a push).

I think it's best to bet up front and hope he folds, while you seem to like to check/call down. I don't like checking the flop b/c it gives free cards, so a hand that would have folded to a bet on the flop, gets a chance to improve on the turn.

If he has an ace, he has an ace, and I think both of us agree that we're doubling him up in that case. But I think betting up front is better for the other times that he doesn't have an ace.

Come to think of it, I like pushing the flop more and more. If you're gonna bet 400, you might as well push. My only concern (and the reason I didn't think it was as great of a move before) is that it looks like a steal/bluff. But if we get called by weaker hands, that's ultimatly a good thing. The only downside is we give up our chances of a weaker ace folding, which I still believe is a possibility in a party 30+3, from my experiance.

[Jason Strasser]

Perhaps.

But that shouldnt be the basis for your decision IMO. The benefits of betting outway the benefits of checking as I outlined above.

-Jason

[FrogMouth]

Well, my eyes haven't started bleeding yet.

I admit that I misread the OP, and appologize for my hasty advice. I will concede that in many instances pushing is not the best option. But, had the stacks been reversed as I had mis-read I'm sure I could make a solid argument for pushing PF in many situations. Without any occular damage.

Reason #1
[ QUOTE ]
I am relatively new to the table, but my read basically entails...
"-called big all-in reraise with KQo
-loose caller pre-flop
-donk"

Overly passive is not part of the read.



[/ QUOTE ]

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
playing that many hands It's likely that he doesn't have an ace and I'd just push him in on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

but then he'd fold any non A hand that I beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. He might call with just about any pair. I think you need to bet this flop b/c you don't want to give him a free shot at KQ etc. Since I don't think you can check, the only bet that makes sense is a push since you're not going to fold to a small raise.

[Jason Strasser]

Its the same type of logic where people say 'if I CR to xxx$ with my draw then i'll be priced in to call correctly if he pushes'.

Its just backwards. You should be raising frequently to get the blinds at this level, and you should just make it 2.5x bb or whatever again... Not push with JJ to avoid this problem. A hand like 66 may fold, whereas it may have decided to resteal if you standard open, thats just one of a zillion examples.

-Jason

[curtains]

I agree that I don't like checking this flop. Basically all the money is getting in no matter what, and I dont want to give this guy free outs, or let another overcard come to his pocket pair that convinces him its no good.

[Stormwolf]

Bet whatever amount makes him commit his chips with an eight or lower pair, $300 sounds good

[Crooked Paul]

Are we overanalyzing the thought processes of a weak player (who is shortstacked to boot)? I can't help thinking the whole situation is simpler than we're making it. Basically I think the rest of his money is only going in the pot when he thinks he has you beat (and most of the cases where he thinks that, he probably does, especially if you let him see more cards).

Either he already hit an ace or a set and is trapping, or you check and let him catch you on the turn or river (big mistake). The only scenario I can see where he puts his money in as an underdog is if he has a pair of 8s or 4s with a decent kicker and reads your bet as a bluff. So basically I'm saying push and get him out of the pot before he can catch anything, since the chance he has you beat already are pretty slim given your read. I'll elaborate a little:

Seems like this is the type of player who calls with a wide range of hands preflop and tries to spike a card. We can pretty easily dismiss most of the scenarios where you're beat here. If he has a PP 88+ he probably would have pushed preflop (yes?). So you're probably not worried about a higher pocket pair or a set of 8s, and you have 99 and 10-10 beat anyway. Even if he was smooth calling with QQ or KK (which seems fantastically unlikely given that he's the shortstack), there's a good chance he'll give you credit for aces if you push.

In fact, there are only two possibilities I'd worry about here. A set of 4s (I can see this guy calling with 44 rather than pushing) or any ace that hit a pair. Given the range of hands this guy is willing to call with preflop, chance of either of those is maybe 20%, absolute max.

I'd just push here and be done with it. If he spiked an ace and checked it, so be it. Your stack is still in good shape and the money was probably going in anyway. If not, he folds and you pick up a decent pot of 6-7 BBs and leave him even more shortstacked; no complaint there. Your best-case scenario is that he hit a pair of 8s or 4s (or he has a smaller PP) and reads your push as a bluff. Then you get paid off and bust him.

To me it's obvious that the worst option is to check and give the fish a chance to hit a pair of kings or queens or a baby set. While I respect the greater experience of posters who counseled checking, I disagree. They seem to think that a check will induce an all-in bluff on the turn, but it seems to me that you're only getting a push here if the guy's hand improves, in which case you're probably beat.

All of this is to say, more concisely: I don't think there's anything you can do to induce an all-in bluff here. The rest of his money is only going in if he thinks he has the best hand. Chances are greatly in your favor that you have him beat on the flop, and you should push to prevent a suckout. That's my point. =)

(I'm basically making exactly the same argument that Strasser did, with more (possibly unnecessary) detail.)


Crooked