KQo vs LAG, I turn top pair and checkraise

[Bodhi]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 is loose-aggressive. He cold calls too much, and he seems to check/raise his good hands on the later streets.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>...standard, or just bet?

[hobbsmann]

well played. Lags will pretty much bet all of there holdings here so you don't need to worry about the turn being checked through.

[Bodhi]

...MP1 calls, BB calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

[Sarge85]

Why bet into the LAG on the flop with a hand that has missed you.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Nick C]

Taking the flop action and the board into account, I'm thinking you can probably count on a LAG to bet the turn with a worse hand more than you can count on him to raise with a worse hand. So I think I like the turn checkraise.

Unless 2/4 LAGs have recently stopped betting again on the turn with a draw instead of taking the free card, I don't think you have to worry too much about the turn getting checked through. Chances are at least one bet is going in, whether you put in that first turn bet or not.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
...MP1 calls, BB calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks good to me. I wouldn't want to pass up a river value bet after my turn checkraise. And I also wouldn't want to fold TPGK, getting 15:1, just because a LAG raised the river.

Edit: I'm not happy about the river raise, though, and I am expecting to lose.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
Why bet into the LAG on the flop with a hand that has missed you.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
standard continuation bet, no?

[ErrantNight]

i like it. but you should be careful you're still getting some value from continuation bets against this opponent in spots where you miss the flop

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why bet into the LAG on the flop with a hand that has missed you.
Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
standard continuation bet, no?

[/ QUOTE ]
Using this term in limit poker is incorrect. A continuation bet occurs in a no-limit game after you've raised the flop and are now first-to-act. Your continuation bet can be sized in relation to the pot to give your opponent incorrect odds to call (usually around 3-to-1). This is never going to happen in limit because the size of the bet is static (usually in limit the opponent(s) is going to be getting 5-to-1 or more). Leading a missed flop in limit hold'em after raising PF is often the correct play - but it's incorrect to term it a "continuation bet".

In this hand - I'm not sure what OP expected to gain from leading the flop. A bet here isn't going to have much FE against a LAG. I think the better play is to check/call. Showing a little weakness on the flop will give you a lot of good options on the turn if Hero hits.

[thejameser]

pf-raise
flop-c/c
turn-c/r
river-b/c

and crunchy is correct on the continuation bet thing.

[ellipse_87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why bet into the LAG on the flop with a hand that has missed you.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
standard continuation bet, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Its a small pot; no identifiable reason to believe hero is ahead; a hand of above-average strength for overcards, but not great; unlikely to fold aggressive player and one other; won't win free card.

With a stronger hand, I would bet to induce a raise and eliminate BB. As it is, I check and call.

[spoohunter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why bet into the LAG on the flop with a hand that has missed you.
Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
standard continuation bet, no?

[/ QUOTE ]
Using this term in limit poker is incorrect. A continuation bet occurs in a no-limit game after you've raised the flop and are now first-to-act. Your continuation bet can be sized in relation to the pot to give your opponent incorrect odds to call (usually around 3-to-1). This is never going to happen in limit because the size of the bet is static (usually in limit the opponent(s) is going to be getting 5-to-1 or more). Leading a missed flop in limit hold'em after raising PF is often the correct play - but it's incorrect to term it a "continuation bet".

In this hand - I'm not sure what OP expected to gain from leading the flop. A bet here isn't going to have much FE against a LAG. I think the better play is to check/call. Showing a little weakness on the flop will give you a lot of good options on the turn if Hero hits.

[/ QUOTE ]


Calling it what you want to call it is semantics. I think it is fine to call it a continuation bet, as many times after raising preflop you will want to bet the flop.

Checking this flop is wrong. You could have the best hand, you many fold some hands that are ahead of you, you could take the pot down right now. If there was another player, or the board was more co-ordinated I could agree with you. But it's three handed, alot of hands miss this board, and you can often take it down on the turn if it gets heads up here on the flop. Also, you have two decent back door draws that make betting more appealing.

[SeaEagle]

I think you played it perfectly on all streets including the river. People who wouldn't bet the flop here are basically giving up on a medium sized pot. If you bet you'll win this pot a lot, and besides, you probably have 6 clean outs plus 2 backdoors (if you're not already ahead). If you check, villian has an easy bet to take the lead away from you and make you fold the best hand.

[ellipse_87]

[ QUOTE ]
Checking this flop is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

The small-ish pot and the aggressive player to my right are what decide this for me. I don't want to commit two bets to this hand. But it wouldn't take much to get me to bet. An Ace would probably get me there.

[Bodhi]

With another type of player on my left, I suppose betting the flop would have more value, but I now believe you're correct that betting this flop accomplishes nothing. In general, betting the flop against a LAG (whether the flop hits you or not) seems to always have the same result: they raise. I think I can probably find other flops like this where I'm betting too often after I whiff.

[Entity]

The whole hand looks fine to me.