QQ One overcard, multiway

[J. Stew]

Table is loose passive. BB is 29/2 over 62 hands, MP3 is 32/3 over 60.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

With Jacks I just complete with six others already in, QQ I'm raising.

Flop: (14 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Turn: (10 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds.

It's hard to believe a check/fold line on the turn is right, but betting into that many players with a K and callers seems spewy. Check/call doesn't seem awesome.

River: (13 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP3 calls.

I felt like I was behind here but they're just calling. Anyone give up here?

Final Pot: 16 BB

I think betting into passive players like that is fine ... esp. if they would call down the to the river with middle or bottom pair.

On a side note, I can't seem to find tables as passive or loose as this on PP anymore ...

i would have played it the same.

[Solovon]

I'd play it the same, and sigh when someone turns over K8o or whatever.

[Thoth]

I'm definitively not betting the turn or river. With 6 opponents the chance of one of them having you beat is just way too high and you're not getting a better hand to fold.

[POKhER]

C/F turn in my opinion, Bet one of them has a king... and if not, i reckon you got lucky.

as your posting, prob did have.

[Highn]

Think you played it okay, fold to a raise on the turn or river. But since they didn't its fine I think.

[POKhER]

how often do you think were ahead?

[Highn]

Probably not that often but since noone showed strength I don't think I could give up in this big pot.

edit:

looking at the hand again it does seem kind of a long shot. So what's our line then? check/fold the river? Or at the turn allready, since if were behind there we only have 2 outs to improve. Still think betting the flop is okay since we have a backdoor straight draw there.

[POKhER]

Not worth chasing a big pot if you think you'll lose often though, but i see where your coming from.

Not sure if betting is the best action, i'd try for a free card/Cheaper showdown i think(Yes were OOP but hey, can always overcall(EEEK)).

With 13BB in the pot at the river you only need to be right about 8-9% of the time to break even. If you think you're winning the pot 10% of the time or more then a bet is right here. If you were dealing with aggressive opponents you might go with a check/call line here. The big question to ask yourself is can either BB or MP3 bluff raise the river with a medium holding? With your passive reads on both of them I'd say bet out in this position and hope they're calling down with a medium pair or Ace high.

[Highn]

I need to stop using the edit button and just reply with a new post, now it's hard keeping track. Anyways, should we let go at the turn then? Since if we beleive we're behind we might just as well fold there?

[Highn]

Problem with that is that even the fish that called down with a pair of deuces is now beating you on the river.
When you bet out on the river I think most medium pairs and Aces will fold, so if you're going to play the river I think you should check/call and hope they bet their medium pair/ace high for you.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
edit:

looking at the hand again it does seem kind of a long shot. So what's our line then? check/fold the river? Or at the turn allready, since if were behind there we only have 2 outs to improve. Still think betting the flop is okay since we have a backdoor straight draw there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting the flop is ok i suppose, although against passives its a nightmare.

I bet "ASSUMING" were ahead, they all call... So do they have a king and are playing as they usually do(passive?)

WHAT IS THERE AGGRESSION FACTOR OP?

On the turn though, I'm not sure... I think i go for check/fold..

But the pot is getting big, i can just see them flipping over a king THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME.


I'm just debating if were ahead often enough to call down atleast...(to breakeven/profit).

[Shillx]

I would certainly check the turn and look to get a check/raise in should MP3 or CO bet, and I would call a bet if a check/raise would just bloat the pot. Obviously I would drop her off for two cold.

The problem with betting is that it is:

A) Highly questionable if it has value
B) Not going to get anyone to fold something that hurts you
C) Makes it such that you will usually have to call a raise

All of these things suck ass. Checking offers at least partial remedies to these problems...

A) We don't need to have an edge on this street to get value from calling. The size of the pot is enough to make a call correct.
B) We will sometimes get to force people with 2 cold.
C) We will fold for two cold so we can save two bets by having it go Hero checks-bet-raise instead of Hero bets-call-raise. In the latter case we will have to call a good % of the time with our implied odds.

Brad

[Highn]

Good point Shillx, that does indeed seem like a good plan on the flop.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]

With Jacks I just complete with six others already in, QQ I'm raising.


[/ QUOTE ]

Gee, I'm surprised nobody has said anything about this.

[POKhER]

Lol, i lose with jacks far to often to complain about not raising!

My excuse is, it mixes up my game /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Highn]

Didn't even see that /images/graemlins/smile.gif

better late then never: Raise with Jacks too!, in fact raise with 99+. Since most people call with inferior hands you have a huge equity edge pre-flop.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Lol, i lose with jacks far to often to complain about not raising!

My excuse is, it mixes up my game /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets see .....

From the BB, JJ I'm raising 93% of the time and it's winning 2.38BB per hand. That's pretty darn good.
From the SB, JJ I'm raising 92% of the time but it's win rate is 0.53. Not as good certainly, but not bad.

Learn to detach yourself from past results. Play good poker.

[POKhER]

but it mixes up my game!

ok ill raise /images/graemlins/grin.gif

RAISE JJ PREFLOP DAMMIT! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyhow, how do you play this hand Ad?

[bjarne]

Against this many opponents I'd check the flop and watch the action behind me before deciding how to proceed. The risk of it being checked through on the flop seems very slim with 7 players in a large pot. They'd all have to be amazingly passive to do that.

Also, with 14SB in the pot betting out doesn't protect your hand from anything in case you are ahead and if you are behind betting is just -EV since only a moron would fold a K with a pot this big.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
From the BB, JJ I'm raising 93% of the time and it's winning 2.38BB per hand. That's pretty darn good.
From the SB, JJ I'm raising 92% of the time but it's win rate is 0.53. Not as good certainly, but not bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you checked only the hands where there were 5 limpers already in?

I don't say raising is wrong (I'm raising) but this way of looking at it certainly ain't good.

Raising JJ preflop here is easy, we had flopped a set!

Seriously, the odds against flopping a set is 7.5:1. We can almost raise for set value (ok, ~the chance of flopping a set AND it holding up is 10:1) but we would like to tie players to the pot the times we hit. Add to that, sometimes JJ will hold up alone. We definately have equity here.

[AdamL]

Because they have such low PFR ag, it's more likely that they limped with something like KJs.

[SocialWelfareIV]

[ QUOTE ]
With 13BB in the pot at the river you only need to be right about 8-9% of the time to break even. If you think you're winning the pot 10% of the time or more then a bet is right here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quick note: for a bet to be right here, you must have the best hand much more than 10% of the time. Against two opponents that will probably call I might guess about 40% of the time. You can call if you're good 10% of the time though.

[Taxmanrick]

I would have played it the same way. No one is really showing you anything. With this many palyers, someone might have the K. Although, it's just as likely they've paired an Ax. Lot of players play any A and will call down with them.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
C/F turn in my opinion, Bet one of them has a king... and if not, i reckon you got lucky.

as your posting, prob did have.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we should check/fold the turn just assuming someone has a K. I think a check maybe ok to see how the action goes. If it is bet/raise to us, then I can see a fold. But if it goes bet/call/call/call to us, then we can call and feel ok about it.

But I am not just check folding b/c there are 6 people in the pot, so someone has to have us beat. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[CourtJester]

If you dont bet you dont even have a chance of knowing where you are as a late position better might bet w/ 2nd pair. You played it fine. And btw about those jacks completing, wrong, raise em up everytime, you want ppl in so when you hit your set you make INF $$$

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
C/F turn in my opinion, Bet one of them has a king... and if not, i reckon you got lucky.

as your posting, prob did have.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we should check/fold the turn just assuming someone has a K. I think a check maybe ok to see how the action goes. If it is bet/raise to us, then I can see a fold. But if it goes bet/call/call/call to us, then we can call and feel ok about it.

<font color="blue">Because of pot odds/implied? or do you honestly think if someone bets we are ahead majority of time to warrent calling? </font>


But I am not just check folding b/c there are 6 people in the pot, so someone has to have us beat. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

<font color="blue"> Sure, But its likly. I'd want to raise and know im ahead or fold becuase i am losing. Calling is least favourite in my opinion. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

[SlantNGo]

Check the river. Flop and turn are fine IMO. I expect to see a lot of people calling here with hands like T9, JT, QJ, etc., and due to the size of the pot, I think a lone Ace is likely as well. On the turn, anyone who called the flop on a straight draw is calling, and someone may have just picked up a flush draw. I bet, and call a raise if it's 18:1 back to me; otherwise, fold to a raise.

On the river, bottom pair just beat you, missed draws aren't going to be calling your bet. Now it's time to check and call.

[Fishlips_Jones]

While it's possible no one has a King, my money is one someone having a King. I then play accordingly.


Fishlips

[Felipe]

blindpost...

I would have played it the same.

I raise JJ from SB with many limpers, because I expect to win more than 1 in 7 times. I lead every street when not shown any aggression. I'm probably done on the river though, so a ck/call might be alright.

I don't check the turn. Someone may have just picked up a good draw (6+ outs), and i don't want to give away money (free cards). If I'm behind - I can't be sure. There is *NO* sign whatsoever that I am. If i am ahead, i *MUST* bet. So betting is right.

thoughts..

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
While it's possible no one has a King, my money is one someone having a King. I then play accordingly.


Fishlips

[/ QUOTE ]

No offence - i think that is bad poker.

Like 3 betting somebody preflop with AKo. flop is K 6 5. He checkraises me. That doesn't mean he's got AA, or KK, He could have KJ, or KQ, or K5. I've got lots of outs to beat K5. Don't get scared of the worst, cause you will miss bets.

[cfjr2]

I like this line,
But what about the slightly more aggressive Turn Check / Raise line.
It may fold a weak K and, if not a re-raise will tell you you're beat. If the raise is called you check / fold on the river since no sane non-K hand is betting into another possible Check Raise. Costs same 2 bets but has better chance of success in many cases.

[J. Stew]

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets see .....

From the BB, JJ I'm raising 93% of the time and it's winning 2.38BB per hand. That's pretty darn good.
From the SB, JJ I'm raising 92% of the time but it's win rate is 0.53. Not as good certainly, but not bad.

Learn to detach yourself from past results. Play good poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm raising jacks with one, two or maybe three limpers from the small and big blinds, but with five already in that sucks to play a low premium pair oop with an over as was evident by my original post I think. With Jacks, an over coming on the flop is more likely than with QQ which is why
SSHE says limp (or complete/check) with jacks if the pot's already multiway. This is the info I've been playin' on, anyone disagree?

[J. Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
If you dont bet you dont even have a chance of knowing where you are as a late position better might bet w/ 2nd pair. You played it fine. And btw about those jacks completing, wrong, raise em up everytime, you want ppl in so when you hit your set you make INF $$$

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I be raising with fives then as well, and twos?!

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
With Jacks, an over coming on the flop is more likely than with QQ which is why
SSHE says limp (or complete/check) with jacks if the pot's already multiway. This is the info I've been playin' on, anyone disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where on earth does it say that?

[Taxmanrick]

I agree w/ this line....no one shows any aggression, I still think I'm best. I'm betting out.

[J. Stew]

I guess I'm spacin', the hand quizzes in the back talk about jacks and back up your point. Hmmm, I swear I read something about Jacks like that, HEFAP maybe? Sounds like I need to raise jax more, thanks.

[SlantNGo]

Problem is, if it's re-raised, we're probably getting good odds to call to hit a set on the river. So we end up putting in 3 bets. The only way I'd re-raise is if I thought that the bettor isn't betting a King, and that I'd fold a King, which isn't often IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
It may fold a weak K and, if not a re-raise will tell you you're beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

[crovax4444]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm spacin', the hand quizzes in the back talk about jacks and back up your point. Hmmm, I swear I read something about Jacks like that, HEFAP maybe? Sounds like I need to raise jax more, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just for set value (the 2's and 5's) Jacks can be played for top pair or whatnot. 2's and 5's are only for set value, unless the board flops A34 or something like that. Pay attention. It's a horrible mistake not to be raising Jacks pf. With that kind of thinking, you might as well not raise Queens or Kings, as there are overcards that can beat you :-p Remember, raise those Jacks

[CardSharpCook]

yeah, its a bet. Particularily because they are passive. If you check, passives will check hands that you beat, bet hands that beat you. If you bet, they'll call with all of them. You only want another bet in the pot if you are winning some 45% of the time. However, this becomes more complicated in that they WILL bet TP if you check, but won't bet hands that you beat if you check. 90% of the time, one and only one more bet will be going into this pot. Chances of being raised are very low. However, you must insure that that bet gets in there those times that you are ahead. That is why you bet here.

[POKhER]

How about Check the turn, bet the river?

Ah this hand is great, I often get in this position.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
How about Check the turn, bet the river?

Ah this hand is great, I often get in this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you still want to fold out aces and weak draws (like a low PP) and charge decent draws (flush, str8). Also, we have no reason to believe that we are behind here. If you get scared by every over card, you'll end up allowing weaker hands to draw out on you for cheap.

CSC

[J. Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm spacin', the hand quizzes in the back talk about jacks and back up your point. Hmmm, I swear I read something about Jacks like that, HEFAP maybe? Sounds like I need to raise jax more, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just for set value (the 2's and 5's) Jacks can be played for top pair or whatnot. 2's and 5's are only for set value, unless the board flops A34 or something like that. Pay attention. It's a horrible mistake not to be raising Jacks pf. With that kind of thinking, you might as well not raise Queens or Kings, as there are overcards that can beat you :-p Remember, raise those Jacks

[/ QUOTE ]

No, my thinking is that we would just complete/check in the blinds with eights and nines if the hand had five players in already. We complete/check because our pair usually needs to improve to win. This is because there are many overcards that will beat us. With Queens and Kings there are fewer overcards that will beat us and our top pair will hold up ui more often that eights or nines. Jacks are in the middle and there is a cut-off point in there somewhere. It sounds like people are arguing for a raise based on set value. But if that was the case we could raise 55's or two's in this spot couldn't we?

If Jax are an auto-raise in this spot are tens an auto-complete based on the possibility of overcards coming on the flop?

If tens are an auto-complete then not raising jax in a multi-way pot can't be a 'horrible' mistake.

[aces_dad]

There is a discussion on playing J's pf early in HEFAP that I think you're thinking of. Basically the point there is that you'd prefer to play either a very multiway pot hoping to improve or shorthanded (say 3 or less) hoping to win UI.

Anyway discussing regarding raising J's from the SB here, approx 30% of the time you'll flop either a J or no overs, whereas with 5's or 2's, you can't get the favorable no over flops that give you a large equity edge possible with J's. So you're not just raising for set value here but also as equity. Where to draw the line, 8's, 9's, 10's? Personally I most likely wouldn't raise 9's here and 10's depend on game conditions but I'd raise J's here everytime.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about Check the turn, bet the river?

Ah this hand is great, I often get in this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you still want to fold out aces and weak draws (like a low PP) and charge decent draws (flush, str8). Also, we have no reason to believe that we are behind here. If you get scared by every over card, you'll end up allowing weaker hands to draw out on you for cheap.

CSC

[/ QUOTE ]

My general "aggression" would be to bet sure, but i've been here many times and sometimes agression isn't wise.

This is screaming "I HOLD KING BUT AM CHECK CALLING YOU" however i know this is "weak tight"... But maybe justified?

Im really torn up on this hand!

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
With Jacks I just complete with six others already in, QQ I'm raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'd raise any pair here.

Edit: In fact I'd cap if I was lucky enough to have a limp-reraiser.

[J. Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With Jacks I just complete with six others already in, QQ I'm raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'd raise any pair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you raising two's in this spot.

[J. Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a discussion on playing J's pf early in HEFAP that I think you're thinking of. Basically the point there is that you'd prefer to play either a very multiway pot hoping to improve or shorthanded (say 3 or less) hoping to win UI.

Anyway discussing regarding raising J's from the SB here, approx 30% of the time you'll flop either a J or no overs, whereas with 5's or 2's, you can't get the favorable no over flops that give you a large equity edge possible with J's. So you're not just raising for set value here but also as equity. Where to draw the line, 8's, 9's, 10's? Personally I most likely wouldn't raise 9's here and 10's depend on game conditions but I'd raise J's here everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, what conditions would be necessary to raise tens from the SB/BB?

[aces_dad]

The worse the players (too loose pf) the more likely to raise. Less multiway I'm also more likely to do it.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you raising two's in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I'm getting 6:1 on my money for every raise that goes in.

1:7.5 I flop a set and when I do I'll easily make up the difference. With a huge pot I'll get people calling me down with all kinds of junk trying to hit 2 pair or trips and building the pot even more when I'm a huge favorite.

[J. Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you raising two's in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I'm getting 6:1 on my money for every raise that goes in.

1:7.5 I flop a set and when I do I'll easily make up the difference. With a huge pot I'll get people calling me down with all kinds of junk trying to hit 2 pair or trips and building the pot even more when I'm a huge favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

And is this just at the Party-pooper .5/1 tables or do you make this play against better players should there be a pot this big when the action is to you?

[MrWookie47]

I'm with Shill on this one, guys. If you haven't read this fantastic thread from the archives (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=791991&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1), NPA advocates a similar play with only A high because of the size of the pot..