Running badly (Long 5000th post) [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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durron597

09-13-2005, 10:59 PM

So, for my 5000th post, I will attempt to determine why I am running so badly, and why I think moving up will help. The bad beats aren't helping, but they aren't the main concern.

1) I am much too loose in levels 1 and 2. Basically the problem is that I overvalue implied odds in many situations. But I am working on this, and I think I would play tighter in a higher buyin game. I get myself caught up in logic like "he's a low buyin donk, he will pay me off".

2) The other problem that I am having is FPS. I give cards when I shouldn't, I make plays on pots that I shouldn't. Below is an example where I make an assumption that I have no good reason to make, and act accordingly.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t1035)
CO (t1165)
Button (t3640)
Hero (t1450)
BB (t845)
UTG (t2130)
UTG+1 (t1770)
MP1 (t1465)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
6 folds, Hero completes, BB raises to t150, Hero raises to t1475, BB calls t695 (All-In).

Flop: (t2320) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2320) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2320) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2320

Results in white below: 
BB has Td Th (two pair, tens and threes).
Hero has As 7h (two pair, sevens and threes).
Outcome: BB wins t1690. Hero wins t630. 

3) The third problem is that I overestimate FE on the bubble. Below is a (low content) extreme example.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t2015)
SB (t1925)
BB (t675)
UTG (t920)
MP (t7965)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t2015, SB calls t1825 (All-In), 1 fold.

Flop: (t4140) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t4140) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t4140) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t4140

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad 2d (one pair, twos).
SB has As 3c (one pair, threes).
Outcome: SB wins t4050. Hero wins t90.

MegaBet

09-13-2005, 11:17 PM

I hate hate HATE showing down weak aces unless I either have a read that my opponent is weak and will fold, or I'm heads up. Hand 2 was 10x worse than Hand 1 (which was pretty bad in itself).

durron597

09-13-2005, 11:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate hate HATE showing down weak aces unless I either have a read that my opponent is weak and will fold, or I'm heads up. Hand 2 was 10x worse than Hand 1 (which was pretty bad in itself).

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me? Hand 2 is fine, I just didn't realize that the SB was a [censored] moron. Hand 1 is just dumb, I should raise and fold to a reraise, or call and fold to a raise without a read.

09-13-2005, 11:24 PM

Hand 1 is an easy fold preflop for me. Weak aces just plain suck, and I hate them, and I hope they die.

While at the same time hand2 is fine, and SB is indeed, a moron for calling.

bones

09-13-2005, 11:26 PM

I disagree that hand 2 was fine. You aren't in bad shape, it's not the bubble yet, and bad aces are almost never in great shape. Sure the SB is an idiot, but poker is full of idiots.

octaveshift

09-13-2005, 11:29 PM

I wholeheartedly believe that you should move up. This is all OPINION, so if someone takes exception to it, please STFU.

That said, I think the added "self-awareness" you will bring to a higher buyin table will do wonders for your game.

You know some of the moves you are making now are not correct, but you are making them anyway. I see this as a symptom of not really caring about the money on the line, or just plain old boredom.

Clearly you have interest in making more "advanced" and nuanced moves, but at the lower limits, these plays are suicide. Even the Party 55s are best abused with straight-up value poker.

Should you play outside of your bankroll? No. Should you play at a level where losing the buyin means something to you? I certainly think so.

If you want to continue developing your skillset, you're going to have to start playing with better players.

And there's no time like the present....

MegaBet

09-13-2005, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate hate HATE showing down weak aces unless I either have a read that my opponent is weak and will fold, or I'm heads up. Hand 2 was 10x worse than Hand 1 (which was pretty bad in itself).

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me? Hand 2 is fine, I just didn't realize that the SB was a [censored] moron. Hand 1 is just dumb, I should raise and fold to a reraise, or call and fold to a raise without a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I don't like it is because I hate pushing into a bigger/equally large stack from the small blind late in the game, especially when you're not desperate and have 2 much smaller stacks waiting to be exploited. People spite call, or call with hands they think are better if they feel you are stealing. My personal preference.

GrekeHaus

09-13-2005, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) I am much too loose in levels 1 and 2. Basically the problem is that I overvalue implied odds in many situations. But I am working on this, and I think I would play tighter in a higher buyin game. I get myself caught up in logic like "he's a low buyin donk, he will pay me off".

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've already figured out that you're overestimating your implied odds, then why haven't you adjusted at the current level? If you can't do this, I don't think moving up will help. You will either:

a) Find out the players at the new level are donks and regress to your current state or
b) Find out the players aren't donks and end up faced with a whole new set of more difficult problems to solve.

The only solution to this is to start being more disciplined. Deep down, you already know when you're making a bad, loose call. Just listen to your instincts and fold. Don't talk yourself into a call.

[ QUOTE ]
2) The other problem that I am having is FPS. I give cards when I shouldn't, I make plays on pots that I shouldn't. Below is an example where I make an assumption that I have no good reason to make, and act accordingly.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP2 (t1035)
CO (t1165)
Button (t3640)
Hero (t1450)
BB (t845)
UTG (t2130)
UTG+1 (t1770)
MP1 (t1465)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
6 folds, Hero completes, BB raises to t150, Hero raises to t1475, BB calls t695 (All-In).

Flop: (t2320) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2320) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2320) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2320

Results in white below: 
BB has Td Th (two pair, tens and threes).
Hero has As 7h (two pair, sevens and threes).
Outcome: BB wins t1690. Hero wins t630. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is pretty awful and completely contradicts your thinking for #1. In #1 you assumed the donk will pay you off, in this one, you're assuming he'll fold. What's he gonna do? Nothing wrong with a steal-raise here, but a play like this is just spewing chips all over your opponent's face.

[ QUOTE ]
3) The third problem is that I overestimate FE on the bubble. Below is a (low content) extreme example.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t2015)
SB (t1925)
BB (t675)
UTG (t920)
MP (t7965)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t2015, SB calls t1825 (All-In), 1 fold.

Flop: (t4140) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t4140) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t4140) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t4140

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad 2d (one pair, twos).
SB has As 3c (one pair, threes).
Outcome: SB wins t4050. Hero wins t90. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually don't think this is a bad play with 10xBB. You have a decent hand here and you don't want the BB to have a chance to get any free chips. The SB will wake up with a hand from time to time, but not enough to make this -EV. Obviously, you'd also rather the BB folds here, but he's going to call with a large range and you'll be ahead of a lot of it.

KramerTM

09-13-2005, 11:36 PM

KramerTM

09-13-2005, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
especially when you're not desperate

[/ QUOTE ]

If pushing is only a desperation option for you, then you have much to learn.

octaveshift

09-13-2005, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
durron, I don't tell many people this, but I have faith in you man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Troof. He's one of the only people I know with a preternatural ability to put people on hands.

(Durron, what am I holding right now?)

KramerTM

09-13-2005, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly you have interest in making more "advanced" and nuanced moves, but at the lower limits, these plays are suicide. Even the Party 55s are best abused with straight-up value poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I happen to be a big advocate of mastering ABC poker before going up to levels where nuanced poker is the norm. This, too, is merely my opinion, so I echo your STFU to anyone who challenges me. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

durron597

09-13-2005, 11:42 PM

I know hand one is absolutely absolutely horrible and there is no excuse. But it's sort of like "if I limp, and he raises, I can push and win a nicer pot". But I have to know he will raise with air there before that makes sense, and that's the problem.

octaveshift

09-13-2005, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I happen to be a big advocate of mastering ABC poker before going up to levels where nuanced poker is the norm. This, too, is merely my opinion, so I echo your STFU to anyone who challenges me. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. I think Durron has it down pat, but is bored with it.

It's like the missionary position. Eventually you are going to have to try to mix it up, and that will sometimes lead to disasterous results. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

KramerTM

09-13-2005, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's like the missionary position. Eventually you are going to have to try to mix it up, and that will sometimes lead to disasterous results. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you just explained my week in a nutshell.

MegaBet

09-13-2005, 11:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
especially when you're not desperate

[/ QUOTE ]

If pushing is only a desperation option for you, then you have much to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not, and yes I (and everyone else here) still have an awful lot to learn. I said it was my personal preference based on what I've seen other people call with in the past in similar situations, which may or may not be mathematically correct. However, I think my posts on this forum prove I'm not a donk, if that's what you're implying.

MegaBet

09-13-2005, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree that hand 2 was fine. You aren't in bad shape, it's not the bubble yet, and bad aces are almost never in great shape. Sure the SB is an idiot, but poker is full of idiots.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely what I'm getting at.

durron597

09-13-2005, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The reason I don't like it is because I hate pushing into a bigger/equally large stack from the small blind late in the game, especially when you're not desperate and have 2 much smaller stacks waiting to be exploited. People spite call, or call with hands they think are better if they feel you are stealing. My personal preference.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. The guys near your stack are exactly the ones to steal from, because (usually) they are just as afraid of your stack as you are of theirs. But I didn't know that this guy would go "ooooooooooooooh preety ace" until this game.

My point was that there are worse examples. Like this one.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t6595)
Button (t1240)
Hero (t2475)
BB (t3190)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t2450, BB calls t2250.

Flop: (t4775) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

Turn: (t4775) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

River: (t4775) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t4775

Results in white below: 
Hero has 6d Jd (one pair, kings).
BB has 8h 8c (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: BB wins t4775.

KramerTM

09-13-2005, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
However, I think my posts on this forum prove I'm not a donk, if that's what you're implying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all man. I think we're just starting to develop a Siskel and Ebert relationship though where we enjoy dfisagreeing on the most trivial of things.

I happen to respect your opinion (I wouldn't bother challenging it if I didn't). No need to think I think you're a donk. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Iamafish

09-13-2005, 11:54 PM

Geez all these responses, how long has it been?

And are you sure the blinds were 25/50? I swear I could remember that being like the 3rd hand of the game, I was there ya know. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

bones

09-13-2005, 11:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong. The guys near your stack are exactly the ones to steal from, because (usually) they are just as afraid of your stack as you are of theirs. But I didn't know that this guy would go "ooooooooooooooh preety ace" until this game.

My point was that there are worse examples. Like this one.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter

UTG (t6595)
Button (t1240)
Hero (t2475)
BB (t3190)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6, J.
2 folds, Hero raises to t2450, BB calls t2250.

Flop: (t4775) K, 5, K (2 players)

Turn: (t4775) 3 (2 players)

River: (t4775) 4 (2 players)

Final Pot: t4775

Results in white below:
Hero has 6d Jd (one pair, kings).
BB has 8h 8c (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: BB wins t4775.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly you know how to play sngs and are familiar with the concepts and theory behind it. This is obviously a terrible call, as was the A3.

But you have to realize that terrible calls at this level are commonplace. It's these calls that make you money.

So what can you do when donks keep making mid pair/bad ace calls? Well, you can move up or tighten up your pushing requirements. You can't expect the bad players to smarten up and stop spite calling you. It wont happen.

durron597

09-13-2005, 11:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Geez all these responses, how long has it been?

And are you sure the blinds were 25/50? I swear I could remember that being like the 3 hand of the game, I was there ya know. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHHAHAH I KNOW YOUR SCREEN NAME NOW, SUCK IT

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edit: Alright I need to play like a play money sng and push every hand and win now.

Iamafish

09-13-2005, 11:55 PM

Lol.

I TOLD YOU IN THE CHAT!

MegaBet

09-13-2005, 11:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I think my posts on this forum prove I'm not a donk, if that's what you're implying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all man. I think we're just starting to develop a Siskel and Ebert relationship though where we enjoy dfisagreeing on the most trivial of things.

I happen to respect your opinion (I wouldn't bother challenging it if I didn't). No need to think I think you're a donk. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't mean to get defensive. I've just gone through 2 threads where everyone is disagreeing with me, me having to justify myself over and over, although I was proved correct in both cases. So a 3rd thread was getting a little much when I'm just trying to help people improve their game with my opinions. It's 4:54am here and I haven't slept in 2 days (see my "how do I sleep" thread /images/graemlins/grin.gif ).

I find a different point of view enlightening, though I'm not a fan of people saying "you're wrong, I'm right". I'm rambling now...

Iamafish

09-13-2005, 11:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Geez all these responses, how long has it been?

And are you sure the blinds were 25/50? I swear I could remember that being like the 3 hand of the game, I was there ya know. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHHAHAH I KNOW YOUR SCREEN NAME NOW, SUCK IT

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edit: Alright I need to play like a play money sng and push every hand and win now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah man, I was trying to look at the history while playing, and you're right, that was pretty f*ckin loose. I'd say maybe you're just tilting, take a break for 1-2 days, thats what I do. And look at your HH.

bugstud

09-14-2005, 12:04 AM

I would stop playing on stars

45suited

09-14-2005, 12:09 AM

Hey Durron, I have a bit of a different take on your situation. Like everyone else, I think that you have a very good ability to put people on hands. That's the good thing.

The bad thing is that because of the bigstacks vs blinds that you play with on PS, I think that you have developed a bit of a FPS tendency post flop. I actually think that the solution might be to switch to Party for a while. The low stacks will force you to play more of a pushbot, robotic style and will take away your ability to get into trouble post flop with fancy plays. You have a very good feel for the strength of hands pre-flop and for bubble play, so I think that this should go a long way toward solving your problem.

At least try this for a while until you rid yourself of your admitted recent tendency toward FPS. I'm sure that you're fully capable of beating higher levels, but I think that first you might want to just switch to Party for a while and get back to basics.

BTW, what does running bad mean for you? Are you on a break even streak or have you been losing for a while?

Iamafish

09-14-2005, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would stop playing on stars

[/ QUOTE ]

That has nothing to do with it, at all.

I saw him make that move, I was thinking, wtf was he doing, thats a 2+2er?

Not in a bad way or nething, just not what I expected to see, at all.

Just take a 1-2 day break durron, review HH, go out, have fun and come back refreshed.

SlackerMcFly

09-14-2005, 12:22 AM

Okay, only because you are the MondoMod now and the fact that you have ~4640 more posts than me. I'll let you in on a little secret as to how to play SNG's at all of the lower levels.

Note: Only Durron is allowed to view the secret. This knowledge could have harmful effects on mere mortals, so don't even try reading it.

1. Patience
2. Discipline
3. Confidence
4. Aggression
5. Imagination 

Use any combination that adds to 3 or less for the first 3 levels, total of 4-7 for levels 4-6, exactly 9 on the bubble, and 7+ ITM.

Keep in mind that I'm not good at math, but you are.... Good luck!

Slacka

Nick B.

09-14-2005, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wrong. The guys near your stack are exactly the ones to steal from, because (usually) they are just as afraid of your stack as you are of theirs. But I didn't know that this guy would go "ooooooooooooooh preety ace" until this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you want to steal from stacks smaller than you. Also A,<8 suck when you have more than 4 bbs.

MegaBet

09-14-2005, 12:31 AM

That's a pretty damn fine system! I like it!

09-14-2005, 12:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
especially when you're not desperate

[/ QUOTE ]

If pushing is only a desperation option for you, then you have much to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been moving into the 33s for about a week and a half now and it seems that bubble play for most players is way too tight. I see a lot more people hanging around at 3-4x the big blind from 75/150 to 100/200 in the 33s. Under these extreme circumstances you are rewarded for greater agression and a wider pushing range. There's so many more stacks of 500-600 hanging around and getting agressive too late. Then you're getting a much better price on calling them. Also a ton of limpers 3-5 handed.

I guess truly effective SNG play is accepting the variance and going for maximum profit.

KramerTM

09-14-2005, 12:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess truly effective poker play is accepting the variance and going for maximum profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP /images/graemlins/wink.gif

durron597

09-14-2005, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, what does running bad mean for you? Are you on a break even streak or have you been losing for a while?

[/ QUOTE ]

My bankroll was just over 1k. Then it dipped below 900, and I have been floating between 700 (never below 700 even after buying in for a set) and just over 900 for quite awhile now. My ROI is like 5% over 230ish SnGs.

Paragon

09-14-2005, 01:11 AM

I like the A2s push, if it's any consolation it's actually a favorite over A3o /images/graemlins/smile.gif The J6s push seems weird, did I see someone say it was really horrible for the BB to call with 88? If I had seen you make more than one other push for > 10 bb's like this I'd probably call thinking at worst it's a coinflip, although I have no numbers to support that play. The BB won't be completely crippled if he loses...

Anyway, I've been enjoying my time on the PS sng turbos. The low blind / deep stack ratio ends after 15 minutes of everyone folding. If you go up 500 chips and are able to maintain, you'll be sitting on 10 bb's for the next 20 minutes. I like it because you can be a little more patient and mix things up a bit, plus it's still possible to pull off resteals and such, since people might actually do normal blind steals and not constant pushing. Also, many people make frequent huge mistakes. I prefer this structure than the temptation of Party + rakeback, although I don't want 2+2ers rushing over anytime soon.

What level do you currently play? I did the 27's for a few weeks in June, and am now doing the 60's and can barely see the difference. Might want to consider it.

Iamafish

09-14-2005, 01:11 AM

Is that a mix of the 16's and 27's?

lorinda

09-14-2005, 01:21 AM

Did you always play at Stars or did you just move there?

If you just moved there, this is the reason you are running badly.

If not, I believe you are applying Party principles to Stars games and the two are not always the same. You can allow your stack to get lower in proportion to the blinds on Stars than you can on Party. Also the Stars players are better on average than the Party ones by a noticable amount.

Also, a huge concentration level is required at the end of a Stars SNG. I played an $11 tourney yesterday where my strategy was to get heads up with the weak-tight-my-friend-is-watching-and-Im-dabest guy and then grind him down at all costs.
It took me 30+ minutes to beat him heads up.
This may not suit your style of play.

Play $22s on Party and destroy them, then move up to $33s.

Please note I've made zillions of assumptions in this post and I hardly really know you, so feel free to ignore any that don't apply.

Lori

durron597

09-14-2005, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is that a mix of the 16's and 27's?

[/ QUOTE ]

All 16s.

Iamafish

09-14-2005, 01:24 AM

Yeah, Im also guessing you switched from party?

durron597

09-14-2005, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Did you always play at Stars or did you just move there?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have about 100 $6.50s and 230 $16s.

Note that I moved to Stars from PokerRoom, not from Party. I got a free $50 on Party and lost it all playing $11s mostly due to variance. This was over a year ago now.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, a huge concentration level is required at the end of a Stars SNG. I played an $11 tourney yesterday where my strategy was to get heads up with the weak-tight-my-friend-is-watching-and-Im-dabest guy and then grind him down at all costs.
It took me 30+ minutes to beat him heads up.
This may not suit your style of play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I am playing the Turbos. I think I am getting impatient waiting for 200/400 blinds, I should start stalling /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Play $22s on Party and destroy them, then move up to $33s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm going to take a shot at the $27s on Stars, I already made money in my first set /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Iamafish

09-14-2005, 01:27 AM

You'd make more at stars also, even without rakeback, if you're good.

lorinda

09-14-2005, 01:30 AM

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

As long as you're aware of your own potential weaknesses, you should be fine.

Lori

durron597

09-14-2005, 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You'd make more at stars also, even without rakeback, if you're good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you referring to the game length of the turbos? I haven't played Party enough to know but I feel like they finish faster.

Nicholasp27

09-14-2005, 09:54 AM

wow@sb calling your push with a [censored] 3

moron

durron597

09-14-2005, 09:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
wow@sb calling your push with a [censored] 3

moron

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, the only advantage A3 has over A2 is the times we both pair, or wheel cards come because otherwise the kickers never play. Oh wait.

runner4life7

09-14-2005, 10:19 AM

I just want to echo that hand 2 is somethign i do routinely, both push that and get called by stuff like that.

zambonidrivr

09-14-2005, 10:53 AM

hand 1, he probably knows your a 2+2'er and has a good read on you because you push every other hand. gg

barry111

09-14-2005, 11:23 AM

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I hate hate HATE showing down weak aces unless I either have a read that my opponent is weak and will fold, or I'm heads up. Hand 2 was 10x worse than Hand 1 (which was pretty bad in itself).

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Are you kidding me? Hand 2 is fine, I just didn't realize that the SB was a [censored] moron. Hand 1 is just dumb, I should raise and fold to a reraise, or call and fold to a raise without a read.

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The reason I don't like it is because I hate pushing into a bigger/equally large stack from the small blind late in the game, especially when you're not desperate and have 2 much smaller stacks waiting to be exploited. People spite call, or call with hands they think are better if they feel you are stealing. My personal preference.

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What he says here is exactly true and is part of a leak. As a matter of fact, I did this very same thing to you(spite call). You told me 'good call' then proceeded to suck out on me.

durron597

09-14-2005, 11:27 AM

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What he says here is exactly true and is part of a leak. As a matter of fact, I did this very same thing to you(spite call). You told me 'good call' then proceeded to suck out on me.

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That's why I don't like making those calls /images/graemlins/smile.gif

durron597

09-14-2005, 11:42 AM

1st - 17
2nd - 7
3rd - 7
4th - 11
5th - 15
6th - 13
7th - 16
8th - 10
9th - 4

Hmmm....

09-14-2005, 12:03 PM

Hey! I only read a couple of replies, one was Lorinda's of course /images/graemlins/smile.gif and I think she's right as she usually is, Party to Pokerstars is a big adjustment. I used to play 5-10 10-20 shorthanded and it took me about 1-2 months to adjust from Paradise (5 player) to Party (6 player). That's quite a long time. Your adjustment is different and hey maybe I'm just slow to adjust but still I'm sure it's not easy.

I also agree that if your goal is to make make money stick to Party, PS structure makes the games last longer and perhaps less fish though I can't be sure as I only play Party now. If your goal is to improve youjr poker skills then the PS structure is of course better, I've been playing almost only party sngs for a while and OI hardly remember how to play poker at all anymore and I used to be pretty good.

FWIW hand 1 I also fold or raise A7 in SB (read dependent, if I think I'm getting called I would rather fold) unless it's leve1 1 Party and it's only 5 to complete in which case calling is fine.

The second hand no way I risk 2000 chips for the 300 blinds with A2. A2 really really sucks. I think NickB said something about A<8 - listen to his words of wisdom. If the blinds were 200-400 sure, 150-300 maybe OK too but 100-200 I wait, no rush.

I ran bad for about 1000 sng's not too long ago. All you can do is play well and it WILL turn around.

Good luck.

PS If you wanna play at PS I would actually like that, I don't particularly want you at my tables.

durron597

09-14-2005, 01:23 PM

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The second hand no way I risk 2000 chips for the 300 blinds with A2. A2 really really sucks.

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A2 is a favorite against the BB's random hand. In fact I expected for him to call me and the SB to fold and I would be a favorite to win 900 chips, not 300. That hand is perfect most of the time, but it's a sign of me overestimating FE. That's why I called it an extreme example.

As for Party, I have played maybe 10 SnGs there so it's not an issue of "switching back".

pooh74

09-14-2005, 01:28 PM

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1st - 17
2nd - 7
3rd - 7
4th - 11
5th - 15
6th - 13
7th - 16
8th - 10
9th - 4

Hmmm....

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I think when you mentioned that you are getting in more pots than you should early bc of implied odds, you are getting hurt by reverse implied odds...and/or playing hands like 78s and not getting away from TP...

as many 7ths as firsts can be easily remedied. As an experiment, play rock poker till level 6 and then turn it on...see what happens.

09-14-2005, 01:53 PM

Fair enough. I think A2 is about the minimum hand that you can expect to be ahead of the BB, problem is IMO that you have 10 times BB in your stack,any more and you would not push allin usually right. My point is that you have bare minimum strength hand to play here and are taking maximum risk with your 10BB stack. If you had say 1500 chips I would like the play much better.

pooh74

09-14-2005, 02:08 PM

U guys are talking about PS standard SNGs...its like apples and oranges compared to the turbos.

Turbos=good because they combine the beginning flexibility of a PS standard SNG with the pushbot, high blind strategy of a late party SNG with the middle cut out....its good on both ends with only a brief period of mid blind tightness rolled in.

I would hate it getting to bubble with 150 blinds...

durron597

09-14-2005, 04:16 PM

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I would hate it getting to bubble with 150 blinds...

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This seems to be happening a lot to me recently. That's the two ways I bust OOTM, the other is losing a biggish pot in level 3 for 1/3-1/2 my stack and then losing a coinflip in level 4 for the rest.

The Yugoslavian

09-14-2005, 07:54 PM

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

http://69.93.50.122/wonderfulgirls/photos/83B0D6C1FA3B11D4856300062950B7A0.jpg

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yugoslav

bones

09-14-2005, 08:12 PM

ytmd

durron597

09-14-2005, 08:36 PM

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:(

http://69.93.50.122/wonderfulgirls/photos/83B0D6C1FA3B11D4856300062950B7A0.jpg

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yugoslav

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This made me happy. Then I had AA vs. my KK vs. 99 vs. a random garbage hand, and 99 flops a set. So I'm even again.