Set in middle position [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

J. Stew

09-13-2005, 10:29 PM

Just got done reading the digest. A thread in it talks about whether to protect or build with a set from
the sb in a multiway pot. What about a set from a middle position?

MP2 and the C/O had cold called two hands in the five hands I had been at the table for.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Is this a pot-building or protecting situation with a flush draw and possible straight draw?

Turn: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (7 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Vote4Pedro

09-13-2005, 10:32 PM

The board is really coordinated, and OESDs as well as flush draws(maybe a gutty w/ an over) arent folding. With that being said, jack it up.

EDIT: TP is sticking around too...you played it fine

Eeegah

09-13-2005, 10:34 PM

There's no other way to play this. The flop raise is almost purely for value--flush draws aren't going anywhere and the only other hands that have any real chance against you are Q9 and JT.

FWIW, I'd say there's about a 1 in 3 chance someone flopped a flush draw here.

09-13-2005, 10:34 PM

If you think they're calling two cold a lot I say go ahead and raise. If the table is not as loose this might be an good time to slowplay. The pot is smallish and big draws aren't folding anyways. You risk losing the pot to a inside draw or runner runner type hand, but might get people tied to the pot drawing nearly dead and get them to call two on the turn.

tiltaholic

09-13-2005, 10:35 PM

raise.

TripleH68

09-13-2005, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The board is really coordinated, and OESDs as well as flush draws(maybe a gutty w/ an over) arent folding. With that being said, jack it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gut with an over peeling one is the greatest concern. If the table is aggressive I might consider calling in hopes that an OESD or flush draw will raise this flop, then hero can check/3-bet.

If it was raised preflop this is a different story.

eviljeff

09-13-2005, 10:38 PM

a raise is definitely in order here. gotta protect your hand against this very draw-savvy board.

Rev. Good Will

09-13-2005, 10:40 PM

PF limp is eh... did you know the people behind you were loose?

other than that, its perfect

tiltaholic

09-13-2005, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PF limp is eh... did you know the people behind you were loose?

other than that, its perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you talking about? this pf limp is fine.

eviljeff

09-13-2005, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this might be an good time to slowplay

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a horrible time to slowplay. you want to make it as expensive as possible for the draws to continue. theory of poker, dude.

Redd

09-13-2005, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF limp is eh... did you know the people behind you were loose?

other than that, its perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you talking about? this pf limp is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the tiltmeister.

Redd

09-13-2005, 10:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this might be an good time to slowplay

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a horrible time to slowplay. you want to make it as expensive as possible for the draws to continue. theory of poker, dude.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the evilmeister.

Vote4Pedro

09-13-2005, 10:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF limp is eh... did you know the people behind you were loose?

other than that, its perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you talking about? this pf limp is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the tiltmeister.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the Reddmeister

Shillx

09-13-2005, 10:52 PM

Job well done. Now make me a white russian.

09-13-2005, 10:52 PM

I have to say that I disagree. First of all the pot is small, so we can think about slowplaying as there might be more value there than protecting our hand. Furthermore, there are not many draws that we want to fold that are going to fold for 2 bets on the flop. So I think by raising the flop we eliminate all the draws that are drawing dead or thin. And this could potentially be a lot of value. Especially if we get lead into on the turn and are able to raise and get everyone to call two. Especially at .5/1.00 where it is near impossible to protect your hand anyways, I think you need to think about maximizing value in spots like these. So, by the theory of poker, we can get these donks to call maybe 3BB when they're drawing dead, which is good for us. EMPHASIS: I say this b/c the pot is small.

Edit: Think about it like this. There are 3.5BB in the pot when it gets to us. Raising to push out an inside draw (which is the ONLY hand we're worried about) increases our equity like 8.5%. That less than .5BB. Oh yeah, we want to "charge the draws", so we make someone that has a flush draw pay .75BB extra (as he has 25% equity). So that's like 1.25 BB we gain by raising. There is POTENTIALLY a ton more value to be gained by raising the turn in this spot. I mean like at least 4BB. More if somone drawing dead improves their hand and reraises us on the turn. I'm just saying it's definitely something to keep in mind when the pot is small, and your not is not vulnerable to weak draws.

Rev. Good Will

09-13-2005, 10:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF limp is eh... did you know the people behind you were loose?

other than that, its perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you talking about? this pf limp is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the tiltmeister.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the Reddmeister

[/ QUOTE ]

I forget that the SB/BB are in the hand.

my bust

J. Stew

09-13-2005, 11:03 PM

I'll make you a magarita for posting your secret play book /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eeegah

09-13-2005, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have to say that I disagree. First of all the pot is small, so we can think about slowplaying as there might be more value there than protecting our hand. Furthermore, there are not many draws that we want to fold that are going to fold for 2 bets on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

One important facet of a slowplay is that it invites your opponents an opportunity to improve to a better, but still second best hand. We don't want gutshots improving here.

09-13-2005, 11:45 PM

Yes but we don't mind if A9, K3, etc etc etc improve. In my original post I said that I would raise the flop based on his description of the table.

My only point is that we have a monsterous hand, and in this small pot a slowplay is a viable option. And I get "theory of poker, dude" as a response.

numeri

09-13-2005, 11:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
One important facet of a slowplay is that it invites your opponents an opportunity to improve to a better, but still second best hand. We don't want gutshots improving here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to hijack the thread, but this hand I played a couple days ago would have been a good opportunity to slow-play.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1. MP3 posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets and immediately slaps his forehead - DOH.

09-13-2005, 11:53 PM

I think it's a lot harder to slowplay when you're the PFR. Sure you might get one or two extra bets in, but people are gonna [censored] in their pants when you end up check-raising or whatever.

Mathieu

09-14-2005, 12:17 AM

I read a nice article about how to play sets in one of Mason's Poker Essays.

In a situation like this one your opponents with a gut shot are not given correct odds to draw out against your set. So calling is good since it allows gutshots and weak made hands (who are drawing almost dead against you) to call incorectly. Also there are a fair amount of cards that will make you wish you had not raised on this flop. So waiting for the turn to raise is not a bad idea.

But if it gets raised behind you, you will have to reraise it to protect this now much bigger pot against gut shots.

One of the risk in waiting for the turn is that you might not get bet into on the turn, so in some cases you will miss value. Especially if your loose playing opponents might have called for 2 bets cold with a weak made hand anyways.

09-14-2005, 12:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
One important facet of a slowplay is that it invites your opponents an opportunity to improve to a better, but still second best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Had some more thoughts about this. I think what you're talking applies more when you're HU against a decent player, who's not calling with a weak hand, but who can improve to a better but 2nd best hand and will pay you off. These donks at .5/1 will look for any excuse to call, especially if the pot is big. So I kind of like letting them all call for one bet on the flop, hope they improve to anything resembling a hand, and let them pay me off two big ones on the turn.

I understand not wanting to let a gutshot win the pot. But I don't think we should always be like "We have to protect the pot. Raise!" B/C protecting the pot comes down to maximizing our EV. In some spots, especially when the pot is small, we get more EV by slowplaying even though sometimes we lose the pot.

09-14-2005, 12:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
One of the risk in waiting for the turn is that you might not get bet into on the turn, so in some cases you will miss value. Especially if your loose playing opponents might have called for 2 bets cold with a weak made hand anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the key consideration. We shouldn't be obsessed with trying to protect this small pot.

Mathieu

09-14-2005, 12:29 AM

I agree that a slowplay is a good alternative in this spot. Of course if the table is filled with very loose players, there is more value in raising. But if the players are reasonable, the slow play probably gets more money.

Also gutshots need pretty good pot odds to draw profitably against a set.

Mason described a hand similar to this one in Poker Essays (not sure which one), and he recommended smooth calling, but reraising if it comes back to us. He was probably assuming better opposition than what we see at 0.5-1.

mvoss

09-14-2005, 08:20 AM

I think you played it fine. With 6 players in the pot there's no way I'm slowplaying this. Raise for value.

Vote4Pedro

09-14-2005, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
These donks at .5/1 will look for any excuse to call, especially if the pot is big

[/ QUOTE ]

Youre starting to see the light

Redd

09-14-2005, 09:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One important facet of a slowplay is that it invites your opponents an opportunity to improve to a better, but still second best hand. We don't want gutshots improving here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to hijack the thread, but this hand I played a couple days ago would have been a good opportunity to slow-play.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1. MP3 posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets and immediately slaps his forehead - DOH.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also a bad time to slowplay. People expect you to autobet HU after pfring 100% of the time, and won't put you on a monster here. If anything, you look more like you're sitting on a monster if you suspiciously check OOP.

09-14-2005, 09:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One important facet of a slowplay is that it invites your opponents an opportunity to improve to a better, but still second best hand. We don't want gutshots improving here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not to hijack the thread, but this hand I played a couple days ago would have been a good opportunity to slow-play.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $1. MP3 posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets and immediately slaps his forehead - DOH.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also a bad time to slowplay. People expect you to autobet HU after pfring 100% of the time, and won't put you on a monster here. If anything, you look more like you're sitting on a monster if you suspiciously check OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think betting right out is perfect and then c/r on the turn or bet on the turn looking to 3 bet if you feel you can get away with that.

tiltaholic

09-14-2005, 10:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We shouldn't be obsessed with trying to protect this small pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know this is a pet peeve of mine. and i know you are advocating "not protecting", whatever that means. and i know you are advocating raising the flop...

but i would just like to make it clear that the word "protection" has no place in the discussion of this hand. we are not raising for protection. we are not protecting the pot. we are not protecting our hand. protection has nothing to do with it...

ErrantNight

09-14-2005, 10:18 AM

looking at this hand, i can't possibly imagine what debate could come from it. standard, played well. Q9spades does not a "coordinated" flop make.

in such a small pot, you don't want to wait for the turn to raise, because you'll absolutely decimate your action there (plus, there is enough coordination, despite my desdain, that giving singleton spades an opportunity to catch a big draw = bad)... but more importantly, you're a huge favorite with outs to improve against the draws that might burn you.

raise the flop, hope you get called, be fine with folds. couldn't be clearer.

CourtJester

09-14-2005, 11:03 AM

Raise it up like 95% of the time with 6 people in. Sucks that almost every1 folded but mostly youll get 3-5 ppl to the turn making you money. For some reason people like staying in till the turn, so yeah the raise was fine.

09-14-2005, 11:30 AM

That's what I'm saying. In my initial post I said that I raise in this pot, with this description of the opponents, and with our relative position to the raiser. So a raise on the flop is clearly for value. And in these situations when we are not vulnerable to weak draws, in a small pot, we should be concerned ONLY about value.

So I said sometimes in a small pot like this you might think about slowplaying, but I meant (though it may not have been clear) if these conditions were different. And the responses I got were "we want to push gutshot draws out" and the like. Not one person, said, "no, there's more value in a flop raise". I'm just saying that we need to think about these hands individually, and point out what is right or wrong about slowplaying in each case.