3 more reasons why the turn screwplay rules... [Archive]

View Full Version : 3 more reasons why the turn screwplay rules...

NLSoldier

09-13-2005, 10:15 PM

(actually 1 reason, 3 hands)
...it causes poeple to make retarded 3bets.

1)
Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad Th (two pair, tens and twos).
UTG doesn't show.
Button has 5h Ac (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.50 BB. 

2)Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (2 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Button posts a blind of $20.
Hero raises, Button (poster) calls.

Flop: (4 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: 
Button has Td Qc (two pair, jacks and tens).
Hero has 2c 2h (two pair, jacks and twos).
Outcome: Button wins 11 BB. 

For those of you who question the free card risk by checking this turn, you have a good point. But the way our HU match had been going I was very confident that he would bet any 2 cards when checked to on this turn.

3)
Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, Button calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, Button calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Button has 6s 6h (two pair, eights and sixes).
Hero has Ks Kd (two pair, kings and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.50 BB.

Evan

09-13-2005, 11:23 PM

What's up with checking the river in hand 3?

NLSoldier

09-13-2005, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What's up with checking the river in hand 3?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once the 8 paired I really only wanted 1 bet to go in on the river, and I pretty much expected him to bet any hand that he would have called a bet with.

Surfbullet

09-13-2005, 11:39 PM

Calling the turn in hand1 takes some sort of read that I wouldn't have, or some sort of understanding of the affect your shania has on the opposition.

Surf

Victor

09-13-2005, 11:41 PM

it never works for me. i either miss bets or spew. i think it sux.

flawless_victory

09-13-2005, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's up with checking the river in hand 3?

[/ QUOTE ]
, and I pretty much expected him to bet any hand that he would have called a bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]this doesnt make any sense. i think hes prob not betting unless he has you beat... but hell call with anything here. even, like, Khigh. v easy bet... that check was a mistake, man.

NLSoldier

09-13-2005, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the turn in hand1 takes some sort of read that I wouldn't have, or some sort of understanding of the affect your shania has on the opposition.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasnt exactly excited to call down after his 3bet, but my read was that he would have raised the flop with a pair, so I went with it.

7ontheline

09-13-2005, 11:46 PM

So screwplay is the sexy for the turn instead of river?

bank

09-13-2005, 11:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So screwplay is the sexy for the turn instead of river?

[/ QUOTE ]

ya

NLSoldier

09-13-2005, 11:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's up with checking the river in hand 3?

[/ QUOTE ]
, and I pretty much expected him to bet any hand that he would have called a bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]this doesnt make any sense. i think hes prob not betting unless he has you beat... but hell call with anything here. even, like, Khigh. v easy bet... that check was a mistake, man.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm, i guess i dont know. i feel like i am never winning if 2 bets go in on the river. and having capped the turn myself, i still dont really know where im at. the 8 was definately a bad card for me. also, if I check he might bluff a busted flush draw taht he couldnt call with. you are right about him calling with A or K high, but he probably doesnt have that unless it was with hearts. i think its pretty close but i could definately be wrong.

Surfbullet

09-14-2005, 12:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
my read was that he would have raised the flop with a pair, so I went with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting - I do my best to incorporate my reads into my play but I don't think I have anything near this specific - what led you to this conclusion about the villain?

I only ask this because I have been getting checkraised with all sorts of pairs on the turn HU at 10/20 - flopped top/middle pair, turned bottom pair, a PP. I dunno. I've started 3betting 2ndpairTopKicker against certain opponents b/c they'll checkraise so light on the turn.

Surf

The Truth

09-14-2005, 03:04 AM

I have been using this play a lot lately. It seems to be golden against specific villains at higher limits.

I was confused by the 3 bets the first 2-3 times it happened (I have top set, they have ace high), then I realized the logic the aggro player is using when 3 betting, and I have started check/raising the river to follow this up some.

It is fairly sexy in the right spots; it looks like you have 2 overs and are giving up, aggros love to take a pot.

NLSoldier

09-14-2005, 03:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my read was that he would have raised the flop with a pair, so I went with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting - I do my best to incorporate my reads into my play but I don't think I have anything near this specific - what led you to this conclusion about the villain?

I only ask this because I have been getting checkraised with all sorts of pairs on the turn HU at 10/20 - flopped top/middle pair, turned bottom pair, a PP. I dunno. I've started 3betting 2ndpairTopKicker against certain opponents b/c they'll checkraise so light on the turn.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]

the read was just based on the last half hour or so that i had been playing with him 3 handed. he never wiated till the turn to raise with a flopped pair.

jason_t

09-14-2005, 03:49 AM

Were you calling the river UI in hand one?

aK13

09-14-2005, 03:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So screwplay is the sexy for the turn instead of river?

[/ QUOTE ]

ya

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder what Entity has to say about your avatar.

NLSoldier

09-14-2005, 03:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Were you calling the river UI in hand one?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.

jason_t

09-14-2005, 03:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Were you calling the river UI in hand one?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, the hand makes more sense to me now. Nice hands.

flawless_victory

09-14-2005, 04:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's up with checking the river in hand 3?

[/ QUOTE ]
, and I pretty much expected him to bet any hand that he would have called a bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]this doesnt make any sense. i think hes prob not betting unless he has you beat... but hell call with anything here. even, like, Khigh. v easy bet... that check was a mistake, man.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm, i guess i dont know. i feel like i am never winning if 2 bets go in on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]if he raises the river, you are FVCKED. just fold if you can.

NLSoldier

09-14-2005, 04:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's up with checking the river in hand 3?

[/ QUOTE ]
, and I pretty much expected him to bet any hand that he would have called a bet with.

[/ QUOTE ]this doesnt make any sense. i think hes prob not betting unless he has you beat... but hell call with anything here. even, like, Khigh. v easy bet... that check was a mistake, man.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm, i guess i dont know. i feel like i am never winning if 2 bets go in on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]if he raises the river, you are FVCKED. just fold if you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

i cant. or i would have bet. what do you think of the turn cap? its not something i would usally do, so feeling like i had maybe gone a little overboard on the turn+the 8 pairing, plus the otehr stuff I said, all factored in to the river check.

09-14-2005, 04:53 AM

cmon nah! youre so gay, dont be such a pussy and bet/fold the riv! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

joker122

09-14-2005, 04:59 AM

if play like this are the norm at 10/20 i quit.

tizim

09-14-2005, 05:29 AM

If people are more likely to make retarded 3-bets, doesn't this worsen your case for screwplaying with Ax unimproved? Unless you only do it with a strong read, that is.

girgy44

09-14-2005, 09:43 AM

Damn u play goot, reading this [censored] is making me miss internet so bad. 20/40 is a [censored] goldmine. And thanks for swaring last night when I drunk dialed international biitch.

Grisgra

09-14-2005, 09:55 AM

Ain't 20/40 fun?

BottlesOf

09-14-2005, 10:17 AM

For how long has this been called the turn screwplay?

09-14-2005, 10:19 AM

I'd check the river too. With the possibility of a straight, I'm not sure I'm 50% confident (or does TOP say 55%?) of having the winning hand. With villain reraising the turn, I would think a straight is a likely scenario.

colgin

09-14-2005, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
For how long has this been called the turn screwplay?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably somehwat longer than this somewhere, but in all practicality just since yesterday when J V used it in a MId-High post (don't feel bad; Schneids needed to ask what it meant).

colgin

09-14-2005, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So screwplay is the sexy for the turn instead of river?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure about that in part because I am not 100% clear on "the sexy". Is "the sexy" any river check-raise. If so, then they are not the same, duifferent streets notwithstanding.

The screwplay needs to be an off tempo turn check-raise. In all 3 of NLSoldier's hands, he was in the lead and then checked the turn. If he had been raised on the flop and called and then check-raised the turn, then I believe that would be . . . well, just a check-raise and definitely not a screwplay.

NLSoldier

09-14-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If people are more likely to make retarded 3-bets, doesn't this worsen your case for screwplaying with Ax unimproved? Unless you only do it with a strong read, that is.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a good point. i guess the difference between these 3 and some of the others I posted in the past, was that with earlier ones, the oppoenents were the type that after my turn CR I knew I wasnt putting another bet in the point w/o improvment. And against these 3 opponents, I knew I wasnt folding no matter what happened. Basically, I decide before I CR, what Im gonna do if he 3 bets. And if its against a guy that I wouldnt be very sure of what to do, then I wouldnt CR in the first place.