QQ out of the bb $55, extracting value

[Maulik]

my thoughts during this hand, if I raise, I'm OOP and if I check I'll be able to extract chips by disguising this hand. 2 limpers will not make it too dangerous to play this hand on the flop. I elect to check/call the flop. On the turn, I'm thinking a mini-raise may be good, and a block bet on the river regardless.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP2 (t985)
MP3 (t1060)
CO (t975)
Button (t600)
SB (t1390)
Hero (t1000)
UTG (t820)
UTG+1 (t985)
MP1 (t2185)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t15, [color=#666666]2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t15, <font color="red">4 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (t52.50) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="red">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="red"> MP2 bets t55</font>, Hero calls t55, UTG folds.

Turn: (t162.50) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="red">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="red">MP2 bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100.

River: (t362.50) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="red">(2 players)</font>
Hero blocking/value bet?

</font>

on the river when the scare card hits, it seems as though I've been drawing and hit so its unlikely i'll be re-raised.

[Unarmed]

Dude, WTF are you doing? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, WTF are you doing? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, I think I'm extracting some value here. are we talking about not raising PF?

I realise its the most draw heavy board possible.

[Maulik]

btw you don't have to change the post for me!

[MegaBet]

Yeah, raise preflop, but in this situation bet 100 (value) on the river and call any raise.

[SCfuji]

so hero bets 100 villain pushes all in and we call? i dont see hero being ahead at all if that happens on the river.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
so hero bets 100 villain pushes all in and we call? i dont see hero being ahead at all if that happens on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do, a vast majority of the time.

[SCfuji]

well if we include the river bet that leaves hero with about 700 chips and if the villain pushes over he will leave hero severely crippled. the raise will be 600 + the 100 to call so with a pot of close to 600 hero is rougly getting 2:1 (i think). i am having a difficult time finding hero to be good here a third of the time.

if we had a solid read that the villain could be bluffing here then the call would be partly justified. it just doesn't seem like a call is profitable given the way hero played the hand. my standard line when i check big pairs or limp them is to check and call all streets if the bets are reasonable.

[MegaBet]

Unarmed, where did your post go? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I would raise preflop to 60-80, U don't want someone with a 7-2 limping and hitting 2 pair. Then make pot size bet on flop, pot size the turn and check the river if he has called all the way you could be beat. I would not call an all in on the river, unless I had a read on the guy, but this early in the tourney probably not.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not call an all in on the river, unless I had a read on the guy, but this early in the tourney probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would, villain has played the hand pretty passively. Although, I'll freely admit this is a leak on my part if someone can give me a convincing argument. I personally put villain on a pair of jacks. But I could be sticking my neck out here.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not call an all in on the river, unless I had a read on the guy, but this early in the tourney probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would, villain has played the hand pretty passively. Although, I'll freely admit this is a leak on my part if someone can give me a convincing argument. I personally put villain on a pair of jacks. But I could be sticking my neck out here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he did pot the flop, and almost pot the turn so I think he could have alot of hands better than a pair of jacks. If he fires the river he almost definitely does. Look how scary the board is, why would one pair fire a river that was checked to him? Dude would just want a showdown.

[The Don]

No PF raise... horrible... why give them implied odds on a hand that you can easily be trapped with?

Given that though....

You are calling there on a board that coordinated on that flop!?!?! Clear raise.

Obvious check on the river though given the way you played it. No much that you beat will pay you off here.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not call an all in on the river, unless I had a read on the guy, but this early in the tourney probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would, villain has played the hand pretty passively. Although, I'll freely admit this is a leak on my part if someone can give me a convincing argument. I personally put villain on a pair of jacks. But I could be sticking my neck out here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be a pair of Jacks, I thought Hero was doing the betting, but since it was mp2 you should have re-raised the flop to see where you were at. Come back with a 150 re-raise.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would not call an all in on the river, unless I had a read on the guy, but this early in the tourney probably not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would, villain has played the hand pretty passively. Although, I'll freely admit this is a leak on my part if someone can give me a convincing argument. I personally put villain on a pair of jacks. But I could be sticking my neck out here.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you put Villain on a pair of Jacks, Dont you think he would bet the flop or the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he bet both the flop and the turn.

[adanthar]

Hey, it's another Chaostracize hand.

PF: fine, you check, this is completely OOP so it's worse than when he did it but OK, whatever

Flop: Hey, a board with every draw in the world and I can represent a vulnerable hand so I bet...wait, no, I check, but somebody has to have hit this so the CR is OK...wait, no, my finger slipped and I called instead.

When you check/call the turn again either your finger slipped one more time or...I dunno, what are you trying to do here? If you thought he had AJ CR or bet at some point before this, but even if you make it here, do you think you're gonna get more chips out of him when he sees the river 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif than right now? If you put him on a draw now is the time to get the chips in, too. If you have him on nothing at all you're really gonna hate most rivers. This hand sucks.

PS: calling a river raise is horrible

[ilya]

The one thing I can say for sure about this hand is that I hate calling a river raise.

I think I like trying to get lots of chips in on the flop. For one thing your hand is obviously vulnerable. Also, many of the hands that may be willing to put lots of chips in on the flop will be of the pair+OESD variety, &amp; you have good defense against that draw.

[johnnybeef]

no no no no no no no. qq is a strong hand that is vulnerable. do yourself a favor, and dont play them like this again in a sng.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
The one thing I can say for sure about this hand is that I hate calling a river raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

But do you call it?

[ChuckNorris]

What's wrong with extracting value with big pockets when it's easier and when you're most likely ahead? That is of course when there are several cards yet to come. Let them see all the cards and they'll pay you when they catch and fold when they don't.

And no, you can't possibly call a raise on the river. I wouldn't even call any big bet. You're only ahead AJ, KJ and QJ which are unlikely to keep firing the river, and you're beat by a huge range of hands like JT, J9, TT, T9, 98 etc. which are all very believable hands for villain to be holding.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The one thing I can say for sure about this hand is that I hate calling a river raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

But do you call it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I guess that wasn't clear. No, I wouldn't call. I just don't see him raising with a Jack. You've been check-calling, suddenly you bet out on the river when a scare card comes...he'd be crazy to raise you with top pair, it's too much hand for a bluff and too little for a value raise.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The one thing I can say for sure about this hand is that I hate calling a river raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

But do you call it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I guess that wasn't clear. No, I wouldn't call. I just don't see him raising with a Jack. You've been check-calling, suddenly you bet out on the river when a scare card comes...he'd be crazy to raise you with top pair, it's too much hand for a bluff and too little for a value raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the closest I've come to being convinced that calling a river raise is incorrect. I guess the hand was played so passively (and against how I would have played it) that you just don't know where you stand. The way I saw it, I found it unlikely that villain would bet a draw on the turn after being called on the flop. Something I'll need to think about and patch up if it turns out to be a leak.

[jeffraider]

This whole hand is poop. FPS.

[MegaBet]

I'm dying to hear what happened. Maulik?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The one thing I can say for sure about this hand is that I hate calling a river raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

But do you call it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I guess that wasn't clear. No, I wouldn't call. I just don't see him raising with a Jack. You've been check-calling, suddenly you bet out on the river when a scare card comes...he'd be crazy to raise you with top pair, it's too much hand for a bluff and too little for a value raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the closest I've come to being convinced that calling a river raise is incorrect. I guess the hand was played so passively (and against how I would have played it) that you just don't know where you stand. The way I saw it, I found it unlikely that villain would bet a draw on the turn after being called on the flop. Something I'll need to think about and patch up if it turns out to be a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's so much about how likely it is that Villain has a draw once he bets the turn. Just cos it's unlikely he's completed a draw on the river, doesn't mean it's unlikely once he's raised. It would just mean that he'd be raising only rarely....
unless he's raising a lot as a bluff...but that's not likely since, as you've pointed out, he doesn't look like the one's who's on a draw.

[Maulik]

i posted a blocking bet of t250, he calls. i win, jq is no good.

totally FPS.

[MegaBet]

So he had a pair of jacks?

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
So he had a pair of jacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

affirmative.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
Unarmed, where did your post go? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted something, and then I got the feeling that this thread was all a big joke and you guys were just playing backwards poker, so I deleted it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So he had a pair of jacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

affirmative.

[/ QUOTE ]

PHEW! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3399722&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;vc=1)

I'm glad I stuck to my guns. But thanks all for a very interesting discussion. It definitely got me thinking.