Overcards - Calling flop and folding turn HU

[ep510]

I've been getting bet into on the flop (with 3 or fewer players) after my preflop raise very often recently. So, I'm wondering how often you guys make this play? Is this ok most of the time, or should I be more agressive on the flop a good majority of the time? Assume an unknown.

Party Poker 5.00/10.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6.00 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.00 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.00 BB.

[ErrantNight]

not much wrong getting out in this small pot against an unknown, but here, a read really helps. against a straightforward opponent who only bets a pair or better here, sure, fine, you don't have the odds to call the turn. however, this is a flush draw a lot of the time, and it sure seems likely (to your opponent) that you might have a queen in your hand...

[Bodhi]

I might even just fold the flop on such an ugly board. Make your A a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and I peel.

If you suspect someone's taking a shot at you because of the flop texture then raise it up to stop future bluffs.

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
however, this is a flush draw a lot of the time, and it sure seems likely (to your opponent) that you might have a queen in your hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't understand this statement. could you explain please?

to OP: IMO the fold is fine.

[ErrantNight]

opponent is betting either a flush draw or a pair. if it's a flush draw, you may have the best hand, and a raise would be in order. if it's a pair, he may believe you have a queen, and fold to a turn raise (or river follow-up).

overall, this is a small pot, and there's a lot of pieces villain could have... and you have, maybe, 6 outs (and perhaps less, if not drawing dead). i don't see anything wrong with folding. just saying that this doesn't seem like a terrible spot, with the right read, for a turn semi-bluff raise.

[@bsolute_luck]

oh i get it: you mean if we raise the turn it would seem to our opponent we have the Q..i think i missed that part of your post somewhere. now i get it and i can aggree with that.

I like the thinking on this. Very nice.

[mdob]

With BB betting into the PFR in a 3-handed pot, I'd tend to think this is a pair more than a flush draw. I'm not saying it's definitely a pair, but that's a more aggressive play than I'd guess an unknown BB would make.

This pot's so tiny I might just fold the flop. I'd definitely fold the turn. The Q is a good scare card, but we'd have to invest 2 BB to win 5. I just don't see him folding or being on a flush draw that frequently.

[ErrantNight]

folding this flop seems really weak.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
folding this flop seems really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this flop loses the least money.

[ErrantNight]

not if you improve to the best hand.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
folding this flop seems really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this flop loses the least money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding always loses the least money. It doesn't win much though.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
folding this flop seems really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this flop loses the least money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding always loses the least money. It doesn't win much though.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can make this fold. But not everytime. Even the bad players will try this again once it works. Same thing on the turn.

This is not an argument against a flop fold, sometimes I will. Same thing on the turn.

But at some point, if you plan to stay at the table, or you play against these players frequently (as is often the case with the TAG types on 5/10 full games around the net), you have to look for oppurtunities to discourage this type of crap. I don't even think you need to succeed, but with many of the players who try this, they will be less likely to attempt it in the future if you make them uncomfortable.

Fold the turn. Take notes that the guy likes to donk to the PFR, probably with a pair or whatever. When you get a big pocket pair against him, just call him on the flop and raise the turn on him, he'll probably call both your turn raise and a river bet.

[ErrantNight]

what are you talking about? what opportunities to discourage why type of crap, and what steps are you taking to do so? and why needn't you succeed?

are you saying if you fold the flop now, they'll bet the flop again later with nothing? how do you know they have nothing now, how do you know when they'll be bluffing later? and don't you see a huge difference between calling the flop and calling the turn in situations like this?

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
what are you talking about? what opportunities to discourage why type of crap, and what steps are you taking to do so? and why needn't you succeed?

are you saying if you fold the flop now, they'll bet the flop again later with nothing? how do you know they have nothing now, how do you know when they'll be bluffing later? and don't you see a huge difference between calling the flop and calling the turn in situations like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand your tirade.

Simply saying that repeatedly folding, in this situation when you miss, encourages many players to keep taking shots at you.

Don't get your panties in a bunch.

[ErrantNight]

wasn't a tirade... but you couldn't have been more inspecific about whatever you were trying to say... if you'd tried

[ErrantNight]

and why do you want opponents taking shots at you?

before you say: so that when I hit big I can extract more money!

it's far more likely that you'll end up in a marginal situation where you're faced with bets that could be shots in the dark than you'll end up with a monster against someone that will bluff-bet you all the way down where before they'd have folded.

which is why it is consistently advocated in many situations to see additional streets when you don't have quite the odds to make it correct to prevent future shot-taking by your opponents.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
and why do you want opponents taking shots at you?

before you say: so that when I hit big I can extract more money!

it's far more likely that you'll end up in a marginal situation where you're faced with bets that could be shots in the dark than you'll end up with a monster against someone that will bluff-bet you all the way down where before they'd have folded.

which is why it is consistently advocated in many situations to see additional streets when you don't have quite the odds to make it correct to prevent future shot-taking by your opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I thought I was being clear that I wanted to diccourage opponents from taking shots at me?

What is your problem?

[DocMartin]

A read on BB would help. I will sometimes raise this flop (like flair said... make them uncomfortable) since I may be best, and if not I may improve. If BB bluffs often I may wait for the turn to raise.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
folding this flop seems really weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this flop loses the least money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding always loses the least money. It doesn't win much though.

[/ QUOTE ]

ahhhh, platitudes!

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]


ahhhh, platitudes!

[/ QUOTE ]

At least I didn't use the (non)word "inspecific."

[silkyslim]

Sometimes I raise flop, sometimes I raise turn and take a free showdown, sometimes I fold turn. I dont like to fold on the flop though, even on Party players will start taking shots at you every flop, I might be best in HU hand, and I might improve to best.