What did this Turn "Donk Bet" mean?

[mojobluesman]

I had no read yet.

I'm getting progressively more confused by these donk bets. Sometimes (usually I guess) they indicate an improved hand, but not always. In this case I couldn't figure out what the turn bet could indicate given it was a second A. I called instead of raising, fearing 3 aces and I actually considering laying it down for one brief moment.

Are there any general 2+2 guidelines about the thinking in these situations?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

[eviljeff]

it could easily just mean "I have two pair now" or "I have a flush draw"

call down seems appropriate

[chiachu]

i suppose BB could have an A...
but i think a smaller 2 pair or flush draw is more likely

raise the turn, and fold to a 3-bet would be my line

[Hojglad]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the turn, and fold to a 3-bet would be my line


[/ QUOTE ]
Why in the world would you want to do this? Do you really want this guy to stop bluffing? Can you make an argument that this raise accomplishes something? Is it for value? Protection? Because it's more fun than calling?

[irishpint]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
raise the turn, and fold to a 3-bet would be my line


[/ QUOTE ]
Why in the world would you want to do this? Do you really want this guy to stop bluffing? Can you make an argument that this raise accomplishes something? Is it for value? Protection? Because it's more fun than calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

raising doesn't help us because
1. he'll stop bluffing if we're ahead
2. he wont fold an ace, so we're still going to lose
3. we may fold the best hand to a 3bet
4. we're not protecting
5. not ahead enough to say ít's for value

[chiachu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise the turn, and fold to a 3-bet would be my line


[/ QUOTE ]
Why in the world would you want to do this? Do you really want this guy to stop bluffing? Can you make an argument that this raise accomplishes something? Is it for value? Protection? Because it's more fun than calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

(in my mind) im raising here for value. Im expecting an unknown .50/1 to call down with their lesser 2 pair here very often.

but then again, i did misread this hand...
i didnt account for sb being in the hand as well, in which case i want him to call too.
So id call the turn, and raise the river if SB folded the turn (otherwise calling again)

I agree it could mean "I improved to two pair" or "I have a flush draw". I also think when the ace pairs it might make him feel it's less likely you hold an A (which is true). I also agree that calling down is best, but is anyone else worried about the third player (SB)? What is he calling with?

[Hojglad]

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[ QUOTE ]
raise the turn, and fold to a 3-bet would be my line


[/ QUOTE ]
Why in the world would you want to do this? Do you really want this guy to stop bluffing? Can you make an argument that this raise accomplishes something? Is it for value? Protection? Because it's more fun than calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

(in my mind) im raising here for value. Im expecting an unknown .50/1 to call down with their lesser 2 pair here very often.

but then again, i did misread this hand...
i didnt account for sb being in the hand as well, in which case i want him to call too.
So id call the turn, and raise the river if SB folded the turn (otherwise calling again)

[/ QUOTE ]
You are insane. A lesser 2 pair might call down, but there are two aces on the board, and all of a sudden someone is betting into you. If he's bluffing, you don't want him to stop. If you are behind you are virtually drawing dead. Now combine these two things. He will call with an A if you raise. He's not folding that. If he doesn't have an A, he probably won't call your raise, so it can't be for value.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
(in my mind) im raising here for value. Im expecting an unknown .50/1 to call down with their lesser 2 pair here very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not ready to credit BB for an A either, but raising is way too much.

Raise/Fold costs the same as a showdown, but doesn't win as much when villain is getting cute.

[chiachu]

[ QUOTE ]

You are insane. A lesser 2 pair might call down, but there are two aces on the board, and all of a sudden someone is betting into you. If he's bluffing, you don't want him to stop. If you are behind you are virtually drawing dead. Now combine these two things. He will call with an A if you raise. He's not folding that. If he doesn't have an A, he probably won't call your raise, so it can't be for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

(after thinking about it some more) i agree with you.
Raising the turn is a bad idea, since (like you said) if he is bluffing i want him to continue.

What do you think about a possible river raise though (if sb folds the turn)? still no good?

[McGahee]

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raise the turn, and fold to a 3-bet would be my line


[/ QUOTE ]
Why in the world would you want to do this? Do you really want this guy to stop bluffing? Can you make an argument that this raise accomplishes something? Is it for value? Protection? Because it's more fun than calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

(in my mind) im raising here for value. Im expecting an unknown .50/1 to call down with their lesser 2 pair here very often.

but then again, i did misread this hand...
i didnt account for sb being in the hand as well, in which case i want him to call too.
So id call the turn, and raise the river if SB folded the turn (otherwise calling again)

[/ QUOTE ]
You are insane. A lesser 2 pair might call down, but there are two aces on the board, and all of a sudden someone is betting into you. If he's bluffing, you don't want him to stop. If you are behind you are virtually drawing dead. Now combine these two things. He will call with an A if you raise. He's not folding that. If he doesn't have an A, he probably won't call your raise, so it can't be for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry but that's just crap. This is hardly ever a complete bluff, and almost always a 7 or a club draw - neither of which he's likely to fold. He's not 3-betting without an Ace either unless he's a maniac. Raise the turn.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
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raise the turn, and fold to a 3-bet would be my line


[/ QUOTE ]
Why in the world would you want to do this? Do you really want this guy to stop bluffing? Can you make an argument that this raise accomplishes something? Is it for value? Protection? Because it's more fun than calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

raising doesn't help us because
1. he'll stop bluffing if we're ahead - he's not bluffing
2. he wont fold an ace, so we're still going to lose - we're not trying to fold an ace
3. we may fold the best hand to a 3bet - very unlikely
4. we're not protecting - yes we are
5. not ahead enough to say ít's for value - yes we are

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="blue"> </font>

[Bodhi]

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Are there any general 2+2 guidelines about the thinking in these situations?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it really depends on the player. Some loose-passives habitually donk bet as a bluff. Others donk when they improve and have a good hand. Figuring out what the donk bet means is very read dependent. Fwiw, I think you played the hand fine. Assuming the villain doesn't have an Ace, calling is ok because only a Q or K can make someone else a bigger pair, and if you're behind raising we'll only get you 3-bet.

[Bodhi]

Raising the river earns an extra bet when we're ahead, and probably loses 2 when we're behind.

[Bodhi]

[ QUOTE ]
He's not 3-betting without an Ace either unless he's a maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a maniac if you 3-bet with trips Aces??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Bodhi]

[ QUOTE ]
1. he'll stop bluffing if we're ahead - he's not bluffing

[/ QUOTE ] What games do you play in where bad players don't donk as a bluff? Some players only bet out with marginal hands or bluffs, and always check their good hands.

[ QUOTE ]
2. he wont fold an ace, so we're still going to lose - we're not trying to fold an ace

[/ QUOTE ] The only hands we want to fold are those containing a K or a Q, and those will fold anyway unless they spiked their kicker. I don't see a plausible hand here that contains a K or Q.

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3. we may fold the best hand to a 3bet - very unlikely

[/ QUOTE ] The only point on which you are correct.

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4. we're not protecting - yes we are

[/ QUOTE ]
Care to give some reasons or justifications for your assertion? What are protecting against that could sink us on the river?

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5. not ahead enough to say ít's for value - yes we are

[/ QUOTE ] We are ahead enough, but raising the turn is not the most profitable play. When we're ahead and the villain is bluffing, he folds. When we're behind we lose 1 or 2 extra bets. Calling here is more profitable than raising.

I don't like that you simply deny what other people say without giving some reasons to justify your claims.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like that you simply deny what other people say without giving some reasons to justify your claims.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, I was in a hurry leaving work and didn't mean to sound smug.
Secondly, I explained my reasons for raising the turn more thoroughly in my other post - most of which you didn't quote in your subsequent response - and the part you did you completely misread.

I'll try it one more time:
The vast majority of the time, it's not a complete bluff. He has a 7, lower PP, or flush draw frequently, and it's VERY UNLIKELY HE'S FOLDING ANY OF THESE. Therefore I don't buy this: "we want him to keep bluffing" nonsense. Make him pay when we likely have the best hand. Folding to a 3-bet costs the same as calling down and we win another bet when YHIG - which is most of the time. The only drawback to this is your vulnurability to a bluff 3-bet - which you agree is not likely at all. Notice I said that usually only maniacs will 3-bet WITHOUT trip aces.

You guys are treating this like it's a WA/WB spot when it's not, and assuming villian is a maniac without a read to boot.

[tiltaholic]

i call it down.
often it's a weak ace.
often it's a random weak hand/bluff.

reads help.