$20-40 Floor Ruling, Ethics? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Howard Burroughs

09-13-2005, 02:03 PM

From a few hours ago.......

$20-40 in a major poker room on the Las Vegas Strip.

On the turn, in a very big multiway pot (Queen high board), guy in the 8 seat says (I'm in the 2 seat)......

"You bet with a lot of confidence".

I say, "Because I can beat a queen".

Local grumpy lady says, "You can't talk about your hand".

Dealer backs her up.

I think they're both crazy and say, "Call the floor".

Floor comes over and informs me, I violated a house rule. I am NOT allowed to talk about my hand during play (This is a cash game, WTF?).

Almost everyone at the table (including me) tells him WTF! (but without the "F")

I won the pot but lots of heated talk afterwards by many at the table. Grumpy local lady #2 and grumpy local lady #1 are on opposite sides of this heated debate. Personally, I think the floor guy is nuts (In this case any way, a good guy otherwise).

Ten minutes later, the senior floor guy walks into the room. As he's walking upstairs, I ask him his take.

He tells me there is in fact no rule against what I did (table talk) but it IS considered unethical.

Unethical? WTF?

All comments welcome.

Thanks,

Howard

SheridanCat

09-13-2005, 02:07 PM

Floormen really should try playing poker sometime. Is talking about the hand, by players in the hand, unethical while it's going on? That would just be sad.

Regards,

T

canis582

09-13-2005, 02:11 PM

Lets say the board is 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and you are betting into some fish on the river. I say 'did he get the flush?' The fish is about to muck his cards, but then looks at them, calls you and wins the pot with the flush.

PITTM

09-13-2005, 02:12 PM

why is everyone such a nit? good god, they should just ban grumpy old ladies from casinos...but then they would lose like 30% of their business...

rj

mosch

09-13-2005, 02:16 PM

Just fence them into a zone with nothing but keno and slots, most of them won't notice the difference anyway.

(And I don't see the problem with talking about your hand mid-hand, so long as you're giving the same info to all players)

Randy_Refeld

09-13-2005, 02:36 PM

I rarely come down on the side of the nits, but this time I am. In a heads up pot I would see nothing wrong with discussing the hand, but since it it multiway I think it is inappropiate.

STLantny

09-13-2005, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely come down on the side of the nits, but this time I am. In a heads up pot I would see nothing wrong with discussing the hand, but since it it multiway I think it is inappropiate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it inappropiate? I never understood that sentiment, if I want to say I can beat a queen or not, its up to the table to decide if I am lying/bluffing, whats the different if I say it, or bet it? None.

Howard Burroughs

09-13-2005, 02:52 PM

Hi Randy,

Thanks for the reply.

"...since it it multiway I think it is inappropiate."

Then I see inappropriate behaviour every single day :-) YMMV

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Howard

Randy_Refeld

09-13-2005, 02:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I rarely come down on the side of the nits, but this time I am. In a heads up pot I would see nothing wrong with discussing the hand, but since it it multiway I think it is inappropiate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it inappropiate? I never understood that sentiment, if I want to say I can beat a queen or not, its up to the table to decide if I am lying/bluffing, whats the different if I say it, or bet it? None.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is it give the appearance of collusion. The hotel guest that you want to stay in the game may see it as you telling your friend to save money becasue you have her beat.

AngusThermopyle

09-13-2005, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The difference is it give the appearance of collusion. The hotel guest that you want to stay in the game may see it as you telling your friend to save money becasue you have her beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.
I almost never talk about my hand. When I do, people who know me know I don't BS. Just the way I am. But 'strangers' don't know me, and so have to make their decision "in the dark". It's not collusion per se, more "local knowledge".

drewjustdrew

09-13-2005, 03:10 PM

I don't think you worry about scaring off players who are concerned about colluders. You worry about scaring off clueless suckers. Clueless suckers most likely don't see anything wrong with friends checking it down, etc.

STLantny

09-13-2005, 03:57 PM

bernie

09-13-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I rarely come down on the side of the nits, but this time I am. In a heads up pot I would see nothing wrong with discussing the hand, but since it it multiway I think it is inappropiate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it inappropiate? I never understood that sentiment, if I want to say I can beat a queen or not, its up to the table to decide if I am lying/bluffing, whats the different if I say it, or bet it? None.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is it give the appearance of collusion. The hotel guest that you want to stay in the game may see it as you telling your friend to save money becasue you have her beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree only if he's saying it to the person with relative discretion. Like whispering. Which I have actually seen one time. Ended up breaking the game.

If it's said loud enough that everyone can hear it that's involved in the pot, and it doesn't have the appearance of being said below board, they are all subject to the same info and can draw their own conclusions. I agree with the OP there.

I would think HU would indicate collusion more since then you could be saving the opponent money. Kind of like softplaying HU after going into the hand multiway. But that's a different matter as that's alot more common and accepted. Especially among regulars in a room. Those same regular 'tards that later on bemoan how much they are down when if they ever played their 'buds' straight up they'd be up. Morons.

b

benfranklin

09-13-2005, 04:49 PM

From Robert's Rules of Poker (Ciaffone):

[ QUOTE ]
POKER ETIQUETTE

The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:

Deliberately acting out of turn.

Deliberately splashing chips into the pot.

Agreeing to check a hand out when a third player is all-in.

Reading a hand for another player at the showdown before it has been placed faceup on the table.

Telling anyone to turn a hand faceup at the showdown.

Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete. Revealing the contents of a folded hand before the betting is complete. Do not divulge the contents of a hand during a deal even to someone not in the pot, so you do not leave any possibility of the information being transmitted to an active player.

Needlessly stalling the action of a game.

Deliberately discarding hands away from the muck. Cards should be released in a low line of flight, at a moderate rate of speed (not at the dealer's hands or chip-rack).

Stacking chips in a manner that interferes with dealing or viewing cards.

Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.

Using a cell phone at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two sections might apply:

1. "Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete." My understanding is that this is usually interpreted to mean that you cannot show your hand or truthfully state what it is. If you lie about your cards, you are not violating this rule. Saying you can beat a queen, if you can, could be interpreted as a nit violation.

2. "Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot." The key word here is "unfairly". Again, an issue of interpretation. Poker is a game of trying to influence the course of play. IMHO, saying anything is fair game and you believe anything said at the table at your own risk.

Personally, I figure that anything said at a card table is better than 50-50 to be BS. But unless I know better, I also figure that the odds are that there is at least one nit at the table, so it's best to not talk about hands.

Randy_Refeld

09-13-2005, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If it's said loud enough that everyone can hear it that's involved in the pot, and it doesn't have the appearance of being said below board, they are all subject to the same info and can draw their own conclusions. I agree with the OP there.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are assuming the players understand the game. I have had players come to me and want me to do somethign becasue someone said to another player "you straddle then I will straddle." The players that might feel something is wrong are the exact palyers you want in the game.

JonPKibble

09-13-2005, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, in a very big multiway pot (Queen high board), guy in the 8 seat says (I'm in the 2 seat)......

"You bet with a lot of confidence".

I say, "Because I can beat a queen".

[/ QUOTE ]

How is saying you can beat a queen any worse than telling the table that someone bet with a lot of confidence? I'm with you on this...

bernie

09-13-2005, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If it's said loud enough that everyone can hear it that's involved in the pot, and it doesn't have the appearance of being said below board, they are all subject to the same info and can draw their own conclusions. I agree with the OP there.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are assuming the players understand the game. I have had players come to me and want me to do somethign becasue someone said to another player "you straddle then I will straddle." The players that might feel something is wrong are the exact palyers you want in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want all 3 in the game, not just the complainer. Some dealers also think of this as collusion. One dealer thought this way during a 2+2 game last december. Took me awhile to set it straight with the dealer what was going on.

But many players(especially new) think of it as a game of bluffing and BS'ing ala WPT and stupid shows like 'tilt'. Again, my first concern would be if the information was available to the whole table when stated. However, I can see your point that it can be a fine line depending on how others may view it.

The time I was at the table, a gal whispered in Korean to a guy next to her (also korean) for the guy to fold. The dealer who spoke Korean, stopped action and reprimanded the player. Floor was called, slight chaos ensued and the table ended up breaking. I think that's a much different situation than what the OP did. Unless he (unintentionally) said it with a low tone.

But I still see getting it HU later in the hand and checking it down as looking worse. Especially when someone is checking down the nuts. Yet this same person is betting HU into other players.

Many of the players that I've found that don't like the straddles are the weak-tight rocks who's sphincter tightens up at the slightest sign of aggression because it pushes them out of their comfort zone.

There are even players who think there should be no discussion about the hand after the hand is done. (note: not table coaching or berating, just discussing) I overheard a guy adamantly try to quiet a couple guys down at a table. They were just talking casually giving unknowingly giving 'free' info on how they play. One of the damndest things I'd heard in awhile.

I will agree, when in doubt, protect the game.

b

jayheaps

09-13-2005, 08:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, in a very big multiway pot (Queen high board), guy in the 8 seat says (I'm in the 2 seat)......

"You bet with a lot of confidence".

I say, "Because I can beat a queen".

[/ QUOTE ]

How is saying you can beat a queen any worse than telling the table that someone bet with a lot of confidence? I'm with you on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to be really nity, "I can beat a queen" could mean that you can just beat queen-high since a pair of queen was never specified.

gobboboy

09-13-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, in a very big multiway pot (Queen high board), guy in the 8 seat says (I'm in the 2 seat)......

"You bet with a lot of confidence".

I say, "Because I can beat a queen".

[/ QUOTE ]

How is saying you can beat a queen any worse than telling the table that someone bet with a lot of confidence? I'm with you on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to be really nity, "I can beat a queen" could mean that you can just beat queen-high since a pair of queen was never specified.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could also say "Big weasel's poppin a big one on Tuesday in the bathtub." Either way, it can be interpreted as collusion.

Al_Capone_Junior

09-13-2005, 11:16 PM

Overall, I am inclined to do nothing about these situations, as they are so commonplace it's almost pointless to bother. However, I'd ultimately have to very slightly side on the philosophy of Randy R on this one, it's basically more of a bad thing that could hurt the game and drive out the fishies. Still tho, unless some local nits get their panties in a bunch, I'm not going to go out of my way to intervene when this type of thing happens.

al

slavic

09-13-2005, 11:47 PM

I fail to see how this is any different than the tricky play who say "I just call one time", or the wild guy who suddenly starts to chirp , "Please don't call", or the guy who bets on the river and starts looking at his cards, shows it to his friends.

In fact, this is a cash game, if you want to turn your hand face up, why not?

bernie

09-14-2005, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how this is any different than the tricky play who say "I just call one time", or the wild guy who suddenly starts to chirp , "Please don't call", or the guy who bets on the river and starts looking at his cards, shows it to his friends.

In fact, this is a cash game, if you want to turn your hand face up, why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some do turn it face up. I can think of 3 that do that right now. Many more that do what you mentioned...haha

b

09-14-2005, 02:02 AM

I can imagine some of you guys playing baseball:

Batter pops up weakly to the infield. Umpire puts his fist in the air, signaling the infield fly rule. The shortstop lets the ball drop in front of him, picks it up, then tags second and runs to first to tag the runner.

Umpire: you can't do that. Infield fly rule. Batter was out as soon as I called it.

Shortstop: That's a stupid rule. If I want to let the ball drop, that should be tough nuts for the baserunners.

Umpire: Its a rule for a reason.

Shortstop: We should be able to play the ball. It's in play. The hitter shouldn't have popped it up if he didn't want the double play.

Umpire: Can we get security out here?

You can actually get disqualified from some tournaments for talking about your hand. Mike Caro doesn't like it either, but it is what it is. Get over it. Talk about the other person's hand if you feel you need to let your knowledge flow.

And showing your hand is, of course, usually plain stupid, and that's why it's allowed.

Clarkmeister

09-14-2005, 03:45 AM

Absurd.

Don Olney

09-14-2005, 11:34 AM

Head -up I say TALK ALL YOU WANT--- but Howard not in a pot with 3 or more players----
What if the board is like this--
A-k-9-7-2 rainbow
you have trip A,s---
One player says to his friend in the hand---I can beat trip J's but not trip A's ---as his friend is ready to bet -- now the friend that was ready to bet tosses is trip 9's into the muck -- yuo just lost a bet from him because of table talk---I have a feeling you would be very upset about this---
So in short NO no table talk about hands with a multi player pot --- I know if it was me in the pot I would have called the floor in a heart beat-----

Rick Nebiolo

09-14-2005, 11:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Overall, I am inclined to do nothing about these situations, as they are so commonplace it's almost pointless to bother. However, I'd ultimately have to very slightly side on the philosophy of Randy R on this one, it's basically more of a bad thing that could hurt the game and drive out the fishies. Still tho, unless some local nits get their panties in a bunch, I'm not going to go out of my way to intervene when this type of thing happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Essentially agree with you and Randy on this one.

Especially in no limit it seems half the table is auditioning for a job as WPT/ESPN commentator (fortunately I haven't heard any ex-wife jokes /images/graemlins/grin.gif). Usually it's a sign of a good game, but sometimes it goes over the top.

~ Rick

Lottery Larry

09-14-2005, 12:19 PM

Aren't their collusion possibilities here? As a general idea, not this specific case.

RedRum

09-14-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, in a very big multiway pot (Queen high board), guy in the 8 seat says (I'm in the 2 seat)......

"You bet with a lot of confidence".

I say, "Because I can beat a queen".

[/ QUOTE ]

How is saying you can beat a queen any worse than telling the table that someone bet with a lot of confidence? I'm with you on this...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to be really nity, "I can beat a queen" could mean that you can just beat queen-high since a pair of queen was never specified.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could also say "Big weasel's poppin a big one on Tuesday in the bathtub." Either way, it can be interpreted as collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]

My personal favorite is just to say: "That's because I've got you beat" or "Only because I'm going to win this pot"

Drink More,
RedRum

andyfox

09-14-2005, 04:39 PM

In the bad old days, Crazy Mike used to say something like "I have four of a kind." He's then turn over two cards and say, "No, wait, I have a full house. Then a third card, "Uh, I think I have three sixes." Etc.

While I think this ruling is silly, I do see an argument for not allowing talk about somebody else's hand. I once had somebody, thinking of calling me say, "So you made the straight, huh?" Which I had. He folded and now the next guy, who hadn't even realized there was a straight possible, started counting on his fingers and, realizing that I might have a straight, just called with top set, where he would likely have raised had the other guy not alerted him to the possibility.

phish

09-14-2005, 04:55 PM

I realize what you did was harmless enough, but there really is a very good reason for not talking about a hand during a multi-way pot. And that is because the info you give, though available to all opponents, is not of equal value to all opponents. A contrived example:

Player A has AA, B has AK, C has QJ. board is TAKxx with flush possibility. Player A bets out, B calls, and C hesitates. Let's say C is usually a timid player who doesn't want to get reraised by a flush. A misinterprets his hesitation as between calling and folding and wants him to call, so he says honestly, 'I promise I don't have a flush.' C believes him and raises. Both call. A's comment has now cost B an extra bet.

I'm sure you can easily think of better examples where someone talking about a hand costs someone else a pot.

the fact is, whatever info you reveal about your hand by talking is not of the same value to all players in the hand. It can lead to hurting a 3rd player, and this could be construed as a sort of unintentional collusion.

BillsChips

09-14-2005, 04:56 PM

I don't see a gray area here. The rule is "Don't discuss a hand in progress". I've seen plenty of players tell everyone that he folded a pair of deuces, when two deuces come out on the flop. It's just bad form.

Luckily most dealers will remind players of this before it gets out of hand.

bernie

09-14-2005, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You can actually get disqualified from some tournaments for talking about your hand.

And showing your hand is, of course, usually plain stupid, and that's why it's allowed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Showing your hand isn't allowed in tournaments.

b

Rick Nebiolo

09-14-2005, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see a gray area here. The rule is "Don't discuss a hand in progress". I've seen plenty of players tell everyone that he folded a pair of deuces, when two deuces come out on the flop. It's just bad form.

Luckily most dealers will remind players of this before it gets out of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big mouthed dealer in my no limit game about a week ago was the one to possibly/probably kill my action! Here's the story:

I'm in seat 8 with the big blind holding J8 in a nine-handed 5-10 blind NL game and get a free play. The flop is J-8-7 rainbow. I make a near pot sized bet and get called by seat 9 and seat 7. The turn is a seven making a two flush. Once again I make a near pot sized bet. Seat 9 goes all-in for slightly more than my bet. Seat 7 calls and I call (I can't legally raise this bet).

The river comes a blank and I suspect seat 7 has a slightly worse hand so I make a fairly big bet into the side pot. While seat 7 is thinking seat 9 holds up his hand for the dealer to see. The dealer says out loud: "That won't win here". The action is still on seat 7. I want his call, but I can see him thinking about the dealers comment and eventually he folds some sort of hand. Seat 9 shows A7 and takes the big main pot and I win a minuscule side pot.

I'm easy on dealers but this time I went nearly ballistic.

~ Rick

09-14-2005, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And showing your hand is, of course, usually plain stupid, and that's why it's allowed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Showing your hand isn't allowed in tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]
And also, it's not allowed in tournaments.

Masquerade

09-14-2005, 06:55 PM

Just claim you were calling your opponent a homosexual rather than discussing your cards.

WackityWhiz

09-14-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just claim you were calling your opponent a homosexual rather than discussing your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD

Howard Burroughs

09-14-2005, 08:27 PM

"I don't see a gray area here. The rule is "Don't discuss a hand in progress"."

Sorry, but this is not correct.

According to the head floor man on duty, there is NO such rule in this room. He said it was bad ethics but not against the rules. He also said , "It's JUST like 'Slow Rolling'. There's not a rule against slow rolling but it is bad ethics".

His words, not mine. He's been working there like a gazilion years.

Also, FWIW, Table talk by others (in multiway pots) happened at this table both before and after this hand. Including by the lady in the #1 seat who said it was against the rules!

FWIW, The guy from Portland (#8 seat) said his confidence remark very loud and I said my Queen remark very loud (so everyone had equal information).

Also note that I never actually said what I had, just that I could beat a Queen. Would it change things if I had said, "MAYBE..... I can beat a Queen?". Or "Maybe, I have a strong hand?".

btw, I raised pre-flop, 3-bet the flop and bet the turn. In a big multi-way pot. I don't think it was that earth shattering that I had a big hand.

I don't talk a lot at the table but I do hear a lot of table talk (in multiway pots) every day. YMMV.

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Best Wishes

Howard

Good Idea

09-14-2005, 08:50 PM

I always thought you were not allowed to talk about hands only if you folded. If you are involved in the hand you can talk about your hand.

Regards,
G.I.

Phat Mack

09-14-2005, 10:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
From a few hours ago.......

$20-40 in a major poker room on the Las Vegas Strip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Floor doesn't "get" poker. Which room and which floor?

09-15-2005, 02:46 AM

the point isn't always if everyone has the info but the order the info comes in...
lets say the guy (the "you bet confidently guy") had aces or kings or a set and he also can beat a queen but the guy after him can't...you may have just cost him at least one bet...

It is bad manners to talk about any hand in progress...always.

Clarkmeister

09-16-2005, 12:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
From a few hours ago.......

$20-40 in a major poker room on the Las Vegas Strip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Floor doesn't "get" poker. Which room and which floor?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's only one it could be.

Howard Burroughs

09-16-2005, 07:39 PM

"There's only one it could be."

Exactly.

************************

As a side note, the next session of poker I played was at GVR (far from the Mirage). Met some friends at Lucille's BBQ, then a little beer and poker at GVR.

I was in the GVR game less then ten minutes when a big multiway pot happened with this river comment (I was not in this hand btw)........

Dude bets out.

Asian lady says, "Why you always bet?"

Dude: "Because I flopped top two."

Everyone called and he was joking about flopping top two.
Everyone laughed and had a good time. YMMV.

Best Wishes

Howard