Bubble aggression maybe taken too far.

[EnderFFX]

20$ SnG on party - you are multitabling

=======================================
Scenario 1

Blinds 200-400

SB - 1000
BB - 1800
Button - 2200
UTG (You) - 3000

What are you doing with these cards?
AA
AK
K9
JTs
85o
22

=========================================

Scenario 2

Blinds 150-300

SB - 2900
BB - 1800
Button - 2200
UTG (You) - 2100

KQo
KTo
K7s
A9o
A8s
66
74o

Thanx for the opinions guys. I have been playing hyper agressive lately and my stats have been showing it. My firsts and fourths are ways up. (Like 15% on each) While my 2nd and 3rds are a little above 11-12%.

Push them all. I have learnt alot from posts over the last couple of days about the -EV of calling on the bubble, even with good hands. But I'm sure pushing all of these (with the possible exception of 74o and 85o) makes the difference between 1st and a sneaky 3rd or lame 4th.

[EnderFFX]

I think I pushed all from scenario 1, and most from scenario 2. I'm just trying to see if I'm being too aggressive, or aggressive enough.

[BadMongo]

Scenario 1:

With no reads, I push everything except the 85o. The typical 22 player just isn't tight enough for this push to have the fold equity it needs. If I think the blinds are trying to out fold each other into 3rd, I push it.

Scenario 2:

Push the KQo, A9o, A8s, and 66. Fold the rest. You are UTG and everyone behind you has chips. If you are called by any of them you risk going out in 4th. And since 22 players like to make crazy calls on the bubble, you can't risk pushing garbage here. You need a hand.

[pergesu]

I push all from the first scenario. The blinds are so huge that you just gotta steal...and the fact that you can't go broke on a single hand is very nice.

What are the stacks in the second one? You've got an extra 1k chips.

[45suited]

Okay, I'll be the guy saying that I don't push all the hands in 1st example. The calling standards are too loose on the 22s to make pushing all these correct, IMO.

Especially if you've already started doing this, don't be surprised to see some calls with all kinds of hands that you'd never expect.

I just had a game where I (correctly) open pushed from the SB with 67s. I had a pretty large chiplead over BB, and there was a shortstack on the bubble with just over 1 BB. The BB INSTANTLY called me with A9o. Won the hand.

Two other guys at the table applauded him for his "great call". Even if he saw my cards face up, his call was horrible. And that was from the SB. Pushing all these from UTG in a 22 is just silly, IMO.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I'll be the guy saying that I don't push all the hands in 1st example. The calling standards are too loose on the 22s to make pushing all these correct, IMO.

Especially if you've already started doing this, don't be surprised to see some calls with all kinds of hands that you'd never expect.

I just had a game where I (correctly) open pushed from the SB with 67s. I had a pretty large chiplead over BB, and there was a shortstack on the bubble with just over 1 BB. The BB INSTANTLY called me with A9o. Won the hand.

Two other guys at the table applauded him for his "great call". Even if he saw my cards face up, his call was horrible. And that was from the SB. Pushing all these from UTG in a 22 is just silly, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand why your push is correct and BB's call was bad (I have experienced this same situation... including applause from peanut gallery), but if the calling range is wide for $11-$22, shouldn't our pushing range be tighter?

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand why your push is correct and BB's call was bad (I have experienced this same situation... including applause from peanut gallery), but if the calling range is wide for $11-$22, shouldn't our pushing range be tighter?

[/ QUOTE ]

It should be tighter. But in the case that I was talking about, his range should have been super tight. I would have been correct pushing any two in that spot. The blinds were large, he was comfortably in 2nd (I had him easily covered), and there was an uber short stack.

I just brought that up to illustrate that pushing the 58o hand, for example, is just silly. For one, our opponents can actually pick up a hand. Secondly, and more importantly, our opponents are stupid. Often we benefit from this stupidity. Pushing 58o UTG and getting called by button with AJ would be a case where we would most likely pay dearly for their stupidity.

[EnderFFX]

Thanx for the post, I've been running into that stupidity a lot myself. Sometimes I suck out, sometimes it bites me in the ass.

Had a guy call my J9s with JTo recently. Everyone complimented him on the great read, and everyone taunted me saying that is what i get for playing so bad.

Good times.

The best compliment I got was after losing to a guy heads up:

"You don't even look at your cards do you, you just play the guy right?"

This was at the 250-500 blind level.

[bawcerelli]

in hand one, personally i'm only pushing the AA and AK. maybe the JTs. hand two i'm pushing everything except the crap hand, think it was 74o.

[ QUOTE ]
in hand one, personally i'm only pushing the AA and AK. maybe the JTs. hand two i'm pushing everything except the crap hand, think it was 74o.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes no sense at all. Would you wait until you have 4BB in hand one, and then start pushing?

[schwza]

1: push em all
2: fold K7s and KTo and 74, push rest

[ZeroPointMachine]

I'm with 45 on this. The typical 22 players love to call with QT and less. If your raising 85o from UTG then you must be raising 100% from the button and small blind. You're raising every hand at that point. So when one of these guys makes his brilliant JTs call you will be on the other end of it. You have to give them some chance to make these brilliant calls against each other. Lean on them from the SB and BTN, but back up some from UTG.

[zambonidrivr]

i think this post is hilarious. however, everyone seems to be thinking push push push. i pick this kind of play off almost all the time which is probably the only reason i am profitable. in 4-way action, yes, hand selection widens, as does calling standards. there are 4 left, you have the chip lead, why run over the table when you have a great chance of finishing first? the remaining stacks can still hurt you and your pushing 85o utg. that is brilliant. i am sorry, but i must be missing something. i think you can get away with this maybe once, twice if you are lucky, but expect a call and a 4th place exit many times. flame away.

[zambonidrivr]

Maybe I should ask, what hands you are calling pushes with on the bubble? Any ace, pair, king high? Don't give me this first in rigger crap as everyone is desparate at this point. I think the first in rigger stuff is more for MTT where chips stacks have higher variance between players.

Thanks

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
i think this post is hilarious. however, everyone seems to be thinking push push push. i pick this kind of play off almost all the time which is probably the only reason i am profitable. in 4-way action, yes, hand selection widens, as does calling standards. there are 4 left, you have the chip lead, why run over the table when you have a great chance of finishing first? the remaining stacks can still hurt you and your pushing 85o utg. that is brilliant. i am sorry, but i must be missing something. i think you can get away with this maybe once, twice if you are lucky, but expect a call and a 4th place exit many times. flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

if we called the CO instead of utg, will you stop posting such wrong advice?

[zambonidrivr]

I don't understand your question. And my post did not offer any advice

[jeffraider]

Scenario 1 - All are easy pushes as big stack with a short SB, even 85o (32o). I'd push any two every time and cackle a lot while I did it. BB/BTN need to find big big hands to call you so you get away with it most of the time and if SB calls you're only down to 2000 if you lose so not a big deal.

[schwza]

sorry, meant to write, "if we called it CO instead of utg...."

but come on, your post was obviously advising not to push 85o there and implying it wasn't close.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
i think this post is hilarious. however, everyone seems to be thinking push push push. i pick this kind of play off almost all the time which is probably the only reason i am profitable. in 4-way action, yes, hand selection widens, as does calling standards. there are 4 left, you have the chip lead, why run over the table when you have a great chance of finishing first? the remaining stacks can still hurt you and your pushing 85o utg. that is brilliant. i am sorry, but i must be missing something. i think you can get away with this maybe once, twice if you are lucky, but expect a call and a 4th place exit many times. flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are missing something. You've got the big stack and your best chance of finishing first is keeping the heat on in this nearly ideal bubble spot. I finish fourth very rarely in this spot.

[zambonidrivr]

i push all these hands, when stack of 2200 is out of the way. so yes, switch situation from utg to button, and full steam ahead.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
i push all these hands, when stack of 2200 is out of the way. so yes, switch situation from utg to button, and full steam ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

That stack of 2200 shouldn't scare you, he's not calling light.

[zambonidrivr]

alright, maybe i need to loosen up a bit. i will be testing this out tonight, and will report back.

[Bill Poker]

[ QUOTE ]
That stack of 2200 shouldn't scare you, he's not calling light.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are missing something. You've got the big stack and your best chance of finishing first is keeping the heat on in this nearly ideal bubble spot. I finish fourth very rarely in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say for the 2200 stack or the other short stacks, best chance of finishing first (or even ITM) is calling the bully big stack, who's pushing/betting standards are much wider. if they think the big stack is pushing any2.

Edit: for the 1st hands, with 2.4BB (SB) and 4.5BB(BB) left, they would call the UTG push with any reasonable hands (a2+ /QT+/22+).

[microbet]

It's not an ideal bubble situation for a few reasons. One is that the short stack is not short enough to make the other stacks feel like they are guaranteed ITM. Another is that you are not a big enough stack that you can take a hit without becoming a short stack. Third reason is that it is a $22 and people will call with shiite, because, hey it's only $20.

I am SNG powertool-less at the moment, but can someone show me the 85o hand is +$EV without telling me that a typical $22er will fold something like 77 or AJ? (very often worse hands will call)

[zambonidrivr]

agreed. nj

[lastchance]

Fold 85, think about JTs, and push the rest.

2) Push the aces, push KQ, push the pair, fold the rest.

[Bill Poker]

agree, without any $EV calculation. I doubt pusing 85o in this situation is +$EV.

[ QUOTE ]
Fold 85, think about JTs, and push the rest.

2) Push the aces, push KQ, push the pair, fold the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
think about JTs,

[/ QUOTE ]

if i recall my "ranking hands against likely calling hands" people put too much thought, specifically, into whether they should push JTs. meanwhile, they push Ax completely thoughtlessly. it's ironical.

citanul