How good does a game have to be to be profitable?

[Mempho]

I would like to hear varying opinions on this. A long time ago, Roy Cooke published in Cardplayer that, in his estimation, a game (as a general rule) needed an average pot size of 7BB to be profitable. I rarely see games that approach this number in online play (without gigantic waiting lists to get in). It is quite rare, however, to see a live mid-limit game at night or on the weekend that doesn't exceed this number.

Now, of course, we all realize that there are different ways to get to that 7 BB (short, aggressive play versus multiway, passive play). Also, there are many different ways to skin the poker cat. You could be up against a weak-tightie and hit him or her with a barrage of raises. Or you could be up against a LAG that you can 3 bet middle pair against for value.

My question is this: How do you know that just sitting down at a table is +EV to the extent that it is actually worth your time (assuming you value your time)?

[brettbrettr]

Don't make this too complicated: sit with players who aren't good.

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]
...a game (as a general rule) needed an average pot size of 7BB to be profitable. I rarely see games that approach this number in online play (without gigantic waiting lists to get in).

[/ QUOTE ]
err

...where do you play?

The profitability of a table is closely connected to your position. If you have two horrible players to your right, the rest of the table can pretty much be filled up with Millers and Slanskys and you can still make a profit.

A big average pot can be a good sign, but you dont need that many bad players to win at a table, if only you get to isolate them often enough.

[mack848]

I always sit to a loose player's left, or at a table with at least three 30%+ vpip players (2/4 full).

If neither of these criteria are met, I open up another table and wait for PT and PA HUD to do their thing.

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't make this too complicated: sit with players who aren't good.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...a game (as a general rule) needed an average pot size of 7BB to be profitable. I rarely see games that approach this number in online play (without gigantic waiting lists to get in).

[/ QUOTE ]
err

...where do you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be Tunica. Perhaps I'm just geographically blessed in this regard.

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
The profitability of a table is closely connected to your position. If you have two horrible players to your right, the rest of the table can pretty much be filled up with Millers and Slanskys and you can still make a profit.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I have found, however, that this can be quite difficult when trying to get 6-7 tables going online. FWIW, I have begged for the ability to make seat changes online to no avail.

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...a game (as a general rule) needed an average pot size of 7BB to be profitable. I rarely see games that approach this number in online play (without gigantic waiting lists to get in).

[/ QUOTE ]
err

...where do you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be Tunica. Perhaps I'm just geographically blessed in this regard.

[/ QUOTE ]
I mean where do you play online? 7BB pot sizes are not that hard to find at most sites.

But yeah everyone else is right; pot size isn't the most important indication of a good game. Just find bad players.

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...a game (as a general rule) needed an average pot size of 7BB to be profitable. I rarely see games that approach this number in online play (without gigantic waiting lists to get in).

[/ QUOTE ]
err

...where do you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be Tunica. Perhaps I'm just geographically blessed in this regard.

[/ QUOTE ]
I mean where do you play online? 7BB pot sizes are not that hard to find at most sites.

But yeah everyone else is right; pot size isn't the most important indication of a good game. Just find bad players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ohhh....online I play at Party. However, at the 2/4 and 3/6 levels I usually see only 1-4 full games with this avg. pot size. Those usually have very long waiting lists, too.

[B Dids]

Entity made a very good post about this that you should read.

Short answer: You're thinking about it too generally.

[Roland19]

You're playing at the wrong time of day then. This is certainly the case in the mornings, however, in the afternoons and evenings, I have no problem finding 10-12 open tables with average pot sizes ranging from 7-8 big bets. Pot size shouldn't be the deciding factor in where you sit down, though, as others have said.

[B Dids]

This post, you read this here now, in fact, read everything Entity says ever (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=3350338 &Forum=,,,All_Forums,,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Limit= 25&Main=3350338&Search=true&where=&Name=13485&date range=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&b odyprev=#Post3350338)

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
This post, you read this here now, in fact, read everything Entity says ever (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=3350338 &Forum=,,,All_Forums,,,&Words=&Searchpage=2&Limit= 25&Main=3350338&Search=true&where=&Name=13485&date range=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&b odyprev=#Post3350338)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link....also reading the bison post which is linked within it.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
Ohhh....online I play at Party. However, at the 2/4 and 3/6 levels I usually see only 1-4 full games with this avg. pot size. Those usually have very long waiting lists, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

These waiting lists look a lot larger than they really are. Remember that people will typically sign up for 10+ waiting lists to get onto 1 or 2 tables. It's not like other sites where 3 people on a waiting list means you actually need to wait for 3 people to leave.