Floorman ruling - you make the call

[gergery]

Had this happen at a B&M casino. What is the correct floorman ruling here?

I limp ($5) in early position with QQ, the whole table calls, BB pops it to $20, I raise to $65. Flop comes down K74. He checks, and I check.

Turn comes A diamonds, and he pushes all-in for $110. I curse my luck, uncap my cards and push them forward to the middle of the table. It's obvious I fold (and obvious I'm weak-tight, but that's a different story).

But then before the dealer can take them (and before they touched the muck), someone at the other end of the table mumbles something, and the dealer started counting the cards in the muck. He goes thru them and then says that he didn't burn a card. So he pulls the Ace off the table and puts it in the muck. So I pull my cards back, and he then turns the Qs over for the turn card. My opponent says, "doesn't matter, I'm all-in". Of course, it matters a lot to me, and I immediately call all-in. My tricky, loose opponent shows Qc 8c. The river comes the 7c, so he makes his flush, but I make my boat, so they push the money to me.

Of course, my opponnet is not at all happy, and calls the floorman. Several of them come over and want the detailed explanation. so as usual, several people give crappy confusing explanations of what happened. They ask me several times, "So you pushed your cards forward and said fold?", and I am smart enough to say "No", which happened to be true. We go back and forth, and its clear everyone there knows my opponnet Bill, and I'm a little concerned he's going to get the 'regular's call', sorta like Michael Jordan always got the ref's call.

What is your decision as floor?

Floor looks confused and then says "I think its split pot" quietly, dealer says split pot, and so then I tell my opponent lets just split it. I think that's sort of fair using moral principles, but I think the rules were more in my favor and in retrospect maybe i should have argued more for my case. what do you think?

--greg

[ QUOTE ]
so as usual, several people give crappy confusing explanations of what happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

so true.

Just my two cents, but I think if your cards didnt' hit the muck and you didn't say fold then your queens are still live. The ace was a burn card. The queen is the turn card, the money is yours

[Jeffage]

You folded due to a bet on a card that was not valid. Since a new card must be dealt, the action must be restarted. Your cards could be recovered so you take them back. The Q is dealt. Your opponent bets and you call. You win.

Jeff

[gobboboy]

Regardless of whether or not you said fold, the hand was kind of messed up since he, you know, completely changed the outcome. Action should be backed up to when he burns a card and then you get action after that. No harm no foul. Anything else and he's being a whore.

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
My opponent says, "doesn't matter, I'm all-in".

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what makes it your pot, IMHO. He can't have it both ways. If he is willing to play it out with objection at this point, he can't then object after the fact. If you had folded to his turn bet, could you call the floor after and get half the pot? No way.

[AngusThermopyle]

Your dealer was an idiot.
Floorman should have been called as soon as the mistake was discovered.
And then the ruling should have been that the Ace stands.
Action was taken on the improper card, his bet. Even if you had not folded, it was too late to back up the action.

After the fact, once the dealer stupidly backed up the action on his/her own, it is murkier. Maybe a split pot was the most equitable solution.

[spoohunter]

Bet the flop.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn comes A diamonds, and he pushes all-in for $110. I curse my luck, uncap my cards and push them forward to the middle of the table. It's obvious I fold (and obvious I'm weak-tight, but that's a different story).

But then before the dealer can take them (and before they touched the muck), someone at the other end of the table mumbles something, and the dealer started counting the cards in the muck. He goes thru them and then says that he didn't burn a card. So he pulls the Ace off the table and puts it in the muck. So I pull my cards back, and he then turns the Qs over for the turn card. My opponent says, "doesn't matter, I'm all-in". Of course, it matters a lot to me, and I immediately call all-in. My tricky, loose opponent shows Qc 8c. The river comes the 7c, so he makes his flush, but I make my boat, so they push the money to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very easy on dealers as a player and when I worked the floor I was very protective. That said, this dealer should be shot (I suspect Al Capone Jr. will agree /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). If there is a significant irregularity (this was significant!) the floorman should have been called immediately. This point would have been once the dealer found out "he didn't burn a card" (as an aside, generally there is a place for the burn cards, the muck, and the stub - he should have been able to determine that there was no burn withoud counting the muck).

Had the floor been called then the decision should be relatively simple. There was "significant action" taken on the ace of diamonds. This is much more important than burning and it can't be undone. Your opponent wins the pot since you folded the turn (and you only loose the amount put in BTF and on the flop).


[ QUOTE ]
Of course, my opponnet is not at all happy, and calls the floorman. Several of them come over and want the detailed explanation. so as usual, several people give crappy confusing explanations of what happened. They ask me several times, "So you pushed your cards forward and said fold?", and I am smart enough to say "No", which happened to be true. We go back and forth, and its clear everyone there knows my opponnet Bill, and I'm a little concerned he's going to get the 'regular's call', sorta like Michael Jordan always got the ref's call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now it's a clusterf_ck but the floor should have been able to work back to the flop.


[ QUOTE ]
Floor looks confused and then says "I think its split pot" quietly, dealer says split pot, and so then I tell my opponent lets just split it. I think that's sort of fair using moral principles, but I think the rules were more in my favor and in retrospect maybe i should have argued more for my case. what do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

The situation is so screwed up a split pot is probably fair. That said, I never made the decision to split a pot in four years of working the floor. That doesn't mean I wouldn't allow it, i.e., if it was obvious that retrieving information as to what happened would take forever or be next to impossible and both parties involved wanted it I'd allow it. But a strong floor should be able to determine who gets the pot.

In the future call attention to a significant mistake when it happens if you want it fixed properly.

Regards,

Rick

[andyfox]

He bet and you folded on the "turn" card. Action is over. Next hand.

Wonder what your all-in opponent would have done had the replacement turn card not helped his hand.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
He bet and you folded on the "turn" card. Action is over. Next hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I said, except you used about 1000 fewer words. A sign of an excellent writer /images/graemlins/grin.gif

~ Rick

[mikehildebrand]

Your cards did not hit muck or another players live hand, right? OK, if another player, as this is happening, makes comments about no burn and this is veriied by the dealer, the action should be backed up to this point; where a sensible player would CHECK (before declaring all-in, to see your action), but that is another discussion, and betting should begin again at this point. The floor was protecting the game by splitting the pot and if you both agreed, that is an ammicable and table friendly thing to do, however, I believe a case could be made for your hand (but I guarantee, one person at that table, knowing "bill" would say that they heard you say 'fold').

[Al_Capone_Junior]

First off, the most obviously glaring problem here is that where the heck does this dealer put his burn cards? They SHOULD be tucked under the pot. Why was he counting the muck? Burn cards don't belong THERE.

Next, let's go one step further. There's one word, and one word only that should be uttered by the dealer in this situation...

Floor!!

There is no correcting the mistake, it's CALL THE FLOOR as the proper action. There is no leeway on this point.

Next I see another significant problem. Why was everybody but the dealer explaining what happened to the floor? First things first, the floor asks the DEALER what happened. ONLY if the dealer cannot offer a proper explanation should the floor be concerned with what the rest of the table has to say.

As for your action, here we are treading a thin line between significant action and the fact you were acting on an improperly dealt card. Sheesh! Did you guys dream this thing up just to torture the unfortunate floorguy that night? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I don't fault the floor for the decision they made. I have split the pot twice that I can recall, and each time it was in a situation where there were so many conflicting rules, concepts, principles, philosophies, and stories, compounded by major dealer error, that it was just too much of a beee-atch to figure it all out.

BTW, someone kick this dealer in the nuts for me.

al

[bodie]

I agree with Al - what a strange situation and the dealer should have called the floor before he decided to exchange one card for another. With everything just as it was: your cards just out of the muck, etc

[dcasper70]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, no kidding!

What were you expecting, he was holding a naked low draw and perhaps a medium wrap? Come on!

Lots of good info here (http://www.o8poker.com)

Does the rest of the O8 board know that you've been lured over to the Dark Side?


/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, someone kick this dealer in the nuts for me. - al

[/ QUOTE ]

I was off in my post above. I'd thought you would want to shoot the dealer. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

~ Rick

PS BTW. what do you do if the dealer was female?

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, someone kick this dealer in the nuts for me. - al

[/ QUOTE ]

I was off in my post above. I'd thought you would want to shoot the dealer. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

~ Rick

PS BTW. what do you do if the dealer was female?

[/ QUOTE ]
Kick her in the ovaries?

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
PS BTW. what do you do if the dealer was female?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm told that a kick to the crotch is still quite painful. Although your aim needs to be a little better as your target areas do not protrode to any significant degree

[phish]

I think your hand should be considered folded and dead. Fact is, regardless of the mistake, there was substantial action: he bet and you folded. Hand over.
To allow a replay after both of you have committed your action can lead to abuses that's bad for the game.
For example, let's say that it was your friend who noticed the error. If the action had been he bet and you raised, then he may have kept his mouth shut. But because he didn't like the outcome, he now opens his mouth and the hand gets replayed? Total bullshit!
There is a reason for burning cards, it's to make it harder for someone to see the next card dealt. But to turn this procedure into a technicality that must be enforced at the risk of the integrity and spirit of the game is simply idiotic.
It's one thing if the mistake is caught when no action has yet occurred, but to take back a card after substantial action is simply a procedure that will lend itself to abuse.

[gergery]

Thanks everyone, very helpful. I'll know for next time.