Play along with me from the SB

[Bankuri]

Ok, I don't promise this will be as educational as Entity's play-along hands. I am quite new to the game (been playing seriously for about 8 months and 20k hands), but I've studied the forums and SSH and this hand is where I feel I really put it all together.

Ok, let's get started. MP1 is a donk. MP2 is an above average .5/1 Party Poker player who seems to have read a book.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero ??

c/r to protect my weak top pair and perhaps define my opponents. Well, perhaps I found out? What's the plan from here?

[adsman]

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c/r to protect my weak top pair and perhaps define my opponents. Well, perhaps I found out? What's the plan from here?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good example of why raising for information, (or to define your opponents, whatever you want to call it), just doesn't work. I mean, what did you find out? Was he raising a draw, or a made hand or did he just click the wrong button? Call if you want for your table image and the odd chance that you may suck out or fold if you want to save some money.

[jrz1972]

I'd call this last flop bet planning to fold the turn UI.

Probably you are outkicked by MP1 while MP2 is a drawing to a flush, but some MP2s will also play sets (or even aces up) this way.

FWIW I would have just led the flop.

[Bankuri]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call this last flop bet planning to fold the turn UI.

Probably you are outkicked by MP1 while MP2 is a drawing to a flush, but some MP2s will also play sets (or even aces up) this way.

FWIW I would have just led the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, leading the flop is my default play and I'd done it on this table quite a bit already. I went for a c/r to vary the play as well (should have mentioned that up front).

[imported_The Vibesman]

I'll usually call and check-fold the turn unimproved.

The flop checkraise is risky, for the possibility it may get checked through in an unraised pot as well as the possibility of a better hand 3betting, but I do like the effort to protect. Still, I think often you'll want to just lead.

I guess you've got the odds to call the 3bet hoping to hit a 3 and improve to 2 pairs. However, MP2's initial call and then reraise makes it look as if he was planning to slowplay, and then decided he didn't need to after all with 2 players betting and raising at him. You may already be drawing dead.

I suppose I would throw another bet at what is now a large pot, hoping to improve. Not sure this is such a good decision, though.

[Bankuri]

When we last left our hero, he was facing a 3-bet to flop check-raise.

<font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Ok, where do we stand? I suppose we found out MP2 has something, perhaps MP2 has a nice ace.

Turn: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

board pairs. I bet this out because I don't like to let MP2 check through with a hand. I keep figuring that if MP2 has improved he will raise...if he's still good, he'll raise (not sure why I think this as even in this session I've had players check call to the river with flushes and sets...not MP2, but players at this table).

What is MP2 playing? The plan?

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
When we last left our hero, he was facing a 3-bet to flop check-raise.

MP2 3-bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Ok, where do we stand? I suppose we found out MP2 has something, perhaps MP2 has a nice ace.

Turn: (7 BB) 6 (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

board pairs. I bet this out because I don't like to let MP2 check through with a hand. I keep figuring that if MP2 has improved he will raise...if he's still good, he'll raise (not sure why I think this as even in this session I've had players check call to the river with flushes and sets...not MP2, but players at this table).

What is MP2 playing? The plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

looks like either his Q6 just got counterited or he is on a flush draw. I lead the river on a non /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
What is MP2 playing? The plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say that MP2 is playing a flush draw or an ace with a good kicker, say, a jack or ten, not a king, and not two pair, or he'd have raised the turn.

I'd bet/call the river on a non-heart, check/call a heart...unless, of course, one of the 4 remaining 6s or aces falls.

[GTSamIAm]

Call flop. Check/fold turn unless you hit a miracle card. Also, don't forget that a 6 could likely cause a split.

By the way, who were you planning on check/raising? Betting out would have probably been better.

[GTSamIAm]

Bet/fold turn is a pretty good line here.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good example of why raising for information, (or to define your opponents, whatever you want to call it), just doesn't work. I mean, what did you find out? Was he raising a draw, or a made hand or did he just click the wrong button? Call if you want for your table image and the odd chance that you may suck out or fold if you want to save some money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more.

[Bankuri]

[ QUOTE ]
Call flop. Check/fold turn unless you hit a miracle card. Also, don't forget that a 6 could likely cause a split.

By the way, who were you planning on check/raising? Betting out would have probably been better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would've been happy to check the flop through (I know, terribly weak of me but that is a horrible kicker). I was hoping for a late position bet to knock one or two people out.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
looks like either his Q6 just got counterited

[/ QUOTE ]

Q6 just turned into a full house /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[deception5]

I don't mind the turn lead, there's a reasonable chance MP1 will bail, being sandwiched between the 2 aggressors. You've also just counterfeited most better aces and would prefer not to give a free card to a draw.

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is MP2 playing? The plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say that MP2 is playing a flush draw or an ace with a good kicker, say, a jack or ten, not a king, and not two pair, or he'd have raised the turn.

I'd bet/call the river on a non-heart, check/call a heart...unless, of course, one of the 4 remaining 6s or aces falls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a good example of why raising for information, (or to define your opponents, whatever you want to call it), just doesn't work. I mean, what did you find out? Was he raising a draw, or a made hand or did he just click the wrong button? Call if you want for your table image and the odd chance that you may suck out or fold if you want to save some money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more.

[/ QUOTE ]

On all of it or some of it?

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
What is MP2 playing? The plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

MP2 has shown a lot of strength on the flop and none on the turn. I think it's unlikely he'd do this with a naked queen, although there is a possibility of a Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifx /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Betting can only get a call from a queen, and most above average players would realize they are behind here and lay down Qx on the river. Checking might induce a bluff/bet from a queen or a missed draw, especially if they put us on a draw, so I'm tempted to check/call the river here. We also lose the least to Q6/A6/66.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
Q6 just turned into a full house

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, just saw that. I stick by the rest of my post though.

[deception5]

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On all of it or some of it?

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I agree that raising for information is generally a bad plan (and that betting out may be better in this example), but the check/raise here is not primarily for information. It's to fold out the 2 other players and increase the chance of winning the pot. There's a reasonable chance it's a value raise as well.

Finally we do learn some information about the other player's hands. We know that MP1 slowed down after the check/raise 3-bet so he doesn't have a monster here like a set or 2 pair, but more likely an ace or a queen. We know that MP2 is either on a strong draw or a monster hand.

Also folding will not save you money here, the pot is getting big now. You have a lot of outs against another ace to split or win and you may have the best hand.

[Guthrie]

He's playing an ace-rag, but the board pairing and the overcard to his rag just took the wind out of his sails.

Or maybe he has four sixes and he's waiting for the river to punish you.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet/call the river on a non-heart, check/call a heart

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems backwards to me, I think villian would fold a flush draw if you lead into him on a non-heart river (although there's some value if you get a call from a queen) and bet mostly hands that beat you if you check/call the flush card.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet/call the river on a non-heart, check/call a heart

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems backwards to me, I think villian would fold a flush draw if you lead into him on a non-heart river (although there's some value if you get a call from a queen) and bet mostly hands that beat you if you check/call the flush card.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the OP:

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 is an above average .5/1 Party Poker player who seems to have read a book.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking was entirely based on: 1. I want to either win this without a showdown, or see a showdown (I'm not folding, regardless), and 2. Villan may be slightly better than the average player. Against an unknown, or an ordinary PP dips-hit, I'd probably check-raise a non-heart, bet-call a heart.

In this case, if he's got a busted flush, I don't think he's going to bluff-bet at me, so I'm betting into him on the non-flush card, and it won't kill me if he folds. OTOH, he may be wily enough to try and bluff me off the pot without the flush if the flush card hits, so I'd like to induce a bluff from a hand that doesn't have the flush.

[Bankuri]

Our intrepid hero is now ready to meet the villain at the river.


In previous action:
[ QUOTE ]


Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

Seems a fair amount of consensus on betting a non-heart and check/calling a heart. It was at this point in the hand that I had my epiphany. MP2 is playing a textbook flush draw. Not sure why, but I absolutely knew if a non-heart fell MHIG.

River: (9 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds.

What did I like about this hand? Well, playing it I felt I was doing the things Miller talks about in SSH. Basically playing your marginal hands aggressively to give you the best chance of winning the pot. Then, seeing that MP2 was possibly playing a flush draw and not the Big Ace/set he was representing on the flop, I bet a river with three diamonds and two big cards on the board knowing my TPNK wasn't beat. At the time I felt this was a value bet, but perhaps more value could be had with a check/call strategy.

This discussion has shown me that my aggressive play on the flop was perhaps a little misguided and a more straightforward bet-call line would have been better. I also noticed that I could easily have been up against A4-AQ or Q6 in this hand and my opponent may not have let me know until the river. What I need to work out now is how often my hand is good vs. how many times I lose to the solid made hands MP2 is representing.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking was entirely based on: 1. I want to either win this without a showdown, or see a showdown (I'm not folding, regardless), and 2. Villan may be slightly better than the average player. Against an unknown, or an ordinary PP dips-hit, I'd probably check-raise a non-heart, bet-call a heart.

In this case, if he's got a busted flush, I don't think he's going to bluff-bet at me, so I'm betting into him on the non-flush card, and it won't kill me if he folds. OTOH, he may be wily enough to try and bluff me off the pot without the flush if the flush card hits, so I'd like to induce a bluff from a hand that doesn't have the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting discussion, river play is something I've been looking at a lot lately.

A few questions with these though. If he's not going to bluff bet a busted flush then why check/raise the river? Are you hoping to get another ace to incorrectly fold? It seems like you'd have more success doing this when the flush card does hit.

Also, why do we want to win this without a showdown - when this happens, you had the best hand almost always so there would be more value in inducing a bluff. (unless you mean the same deal as above - trying to get another ace to incorrectly fold)

Finally I'm not sure bet/calling is the best plan here when the flush card hits. The villian's play looks an awful lot like a flush, I doubt he's bluff raising anything you beat on the river here, but maybe I've been playing too many passives at stars.