LAGgin' it up in the $109s

[Jman28]

No reads.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP1 (t735)
<font color="#C00000">MP2 (t1760)</font>
CO (t1010)
Button (t890)
SB (t990)
<font color="#C00000">Hero (t2610)</font>
UTG (t1045)
UTG+1 (t960)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero checks.

Flop: (t75) 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t70</font>, MP2 calls t70.

Turn: (t215) J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, MP2 calls t200.

River: (t615) 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t615</font>, Hero calls t615.

Final Pot: t1845

Talk to me.

[Degen]

i don't like the second shell, tho maybe this is something i need in my arsenal...does this work often for you?

w/out reads, i don't think you can make that river call either, what is he calling with?

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

i don't like the second shell, tho maybe this is something i need in my arsenal...does this work often for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just starting to experiment with it. I'll let you know.

[ QUOTE ]

w/out reads, i don't think you can make that river call either, what is he calling with?

[/ QUOTE ]

A draw, I hope.

What is he not raising the flop or turn with?

[MegaBet]

hmmmm...the jury's out on that one.

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]

What is he not raising the flop or turn with?

[/ QUOTE ]

good point


what about betting smaller on the flop/turn? like 1/2-2/3 pot? so if you're called its cheaper...

unless you are getting really creative and trying to get him to call big bets so you have more to steal later hehe



the 109's are fun aren't they?

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

what about betting smaller on the flop/turn? like 1/2-2/3 pot? so if you're called its cheaper...


[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop, I think it's not a bad idea.

On the turn, I think he's most likely on a draw, so I bet pot size so that he doesn't have the odds to call. (although he really isn't drawing at all)

I really expected my turn bet to take down the pot.

[ QUOTE ]

unless you are getting really creative and trying to get him to call big bets so you have more to steal later hehe


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe in a couple months.

[schwza]

i really like this line. preflop.

[durron597]

Your flop lead means nothing. If I was going to take a shot here I would checkraise the flop.

On the river you are no good he has a set.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
i really like this line. preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

What specifically don't you like and why?

[schwza]

flop: you're not going to fold out any pocket pairs. a7 and below has a double-gutter or better, so they're not going anywhere. bigger Ax might raise, call, or fold. (the possibility that a hand like AT might call is a good reason to bet the turn). flush draws are likely sticking around. i don't think you're winning the pot on the flop enough, so you're committing yourself to firing again on the turn, which means you're committing a lot of chips on a hand where you have no outs you're happy with.

on the river, my experience (disclaimer: at the 33's) is that people bluff missed draws less often than i expect them too. maybe 109's are different.

interesting hand, just because it made me think about a line that is not in my bag of tricks.

[schwza]

i didn't even notice this till now, but i posted this hand in mtt earlier today. see, i would never try to steal out of the blinds on a 345 flop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t940)
SB (t940)
Hero (t1000)
UTG (t985)
UTG+1 (t985)
UTG+2 (t1340)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t975)
MP3 (t840)
CO (t995)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t60) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t45</font>,

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

flop: you're not going to fold out any pocket pairs. a7 and below has a double-gutter or better, so they're not going anywhere. bigger Ax might raise, call, or fold. (the possibility that a hand like AT might call is a good reason to bet the turn). flush draws are likely sticking around. i don't think you're winning the pot on the flop enough, so you're committing yourself to firing again on the turn,

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you. My flop bet probably is a little less break even (really rough estimate).

I am setting up/prepared for a turn bluff here. We are both deep stacked so each bluff carries a lot of leverage behind it.

[ QUOTE ]

interesting hand, just because it made me think about a line that is not in my bag of tricks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not in mine either yet. Experimenting.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

On the river you are no good he has a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't a set very often raise the flop or turn?

I don't like the river call. I think he has a set and he was afraid you were drawing to an open ended straight or a flush. Although I can't imagine he wouldn't raise your 70 bet with a set. But how could he just call you down if 8s were good? Your turn bet would put him off any flush draw. Maybe he has A5s (or A4s or A3s) but that river bet makes me think he got a lot more comfortable with his hand after the turn and river.

Check raising the flop is more effective in a spot like this I think. When someone voluntarily puts money into the pot, even just limping, they're looking for a reason to stay in. Checkraise will make them fold their garbage, leading the flop may not

I like the second barrel a lot. This type of play works quite well in multitable tourneys as well. How about a weak lead on the river. If u get raised your beat for sure

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

On the river you are no good he has a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't a set very often raise the flop or turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

He might have a straight. Think about common openlimping hands. You are charging a lot of chips on the turn, I don't think he's calling you with just a draw or a hand like A5s. You are beaten on the river most of the time here, and it's by a hand that can beat a jack. I am folding.

[Chaostracize]

I wouldn't have minded the river call if you didn't fire the second barrel. But once you DO fire the second barrel, and you hit your 8, I'm value betting the river and folding to a raise.

[curtains]

Of course I would never play like this in a million years.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have minded the river call if you didn't fire the second barrel. But once you DO fire the second barrel, and you hit your 8, I'm value betting the river and folding to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has a draw or a hand that spanks my pair of eights. A value bet doesn't accomplish anything really.

What hand do you think he'll call with that I beat? A4 maybe. I think a check-call is better here to catch all the draws. He will bet a missed flush draw a large amount of the time here.

[Unarmed]

I see that flop and my first instinct is to check/call and bluff any of the 3552529 scare cards on the turn. Your first instinct was to represent the weak made hand. Weird, huh. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

If I bet the flop I play it as you did. Whenever I make some whacky bluff on a drawy board and get flat called, I'm normally committed to firing that second (and often third) barrel, unless I'm against an aggro opponent and the turn delivers a card that an overpair would normally be scared of (the J is fine in this case).

Betting the river is obviously bad, for reasons you have already mentioned, and you can fold or call based on your read and his bet size. Note: I call pretty much anything there b/c I'm a calling station. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jman28]

Dude has 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and I chuckle a little bit.

[bigt439]

I really like your thinking on the hand, but couldn't put my finger on why I didn't like the line. I think the reason I don't like it is because I feel like he is calling the turn alot with just a draw if you don't have any reads on him (he basically did call with just a draw, so this is what I'm getting at). Most drawing hands are ahead of you just becaue they likely have a card higher than a 9 in it. I like the river given how the rest of the hand went, but I don't think you can fire two barrels on this board because of the many times you lose to a high card.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

I really like your thinking on the hand, but couldn't put my finger on why I didn't like the line. I think the reason I don't like it is because I feel like he is calling the turn alot with just a draw if you don't have any reads on him (he basically did call with just a draw, so this is what I'm getting at). Most drawing hands are ahead of you just becaue they likely have a card higher than a 9 in it. I like the river given how the rest of the hand went, but I don't think you can fire two barrels on this board because of the many times you lose to a high card.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I don't hit my pair on the river, I plan on betting again, which should fold most of his missed draws.

[The Don]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude has 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and I chuckle a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the few feasible hands you could actually beat. There is no way that calling this river is profitable long run. Why is it that whenever someone makes a play like this and it works they feel the need to post it and show off their 'poker skills'

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I see that flop and my first instinct is to check/call and bluff any of the 3552529 scare cards on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a much better line, IMO.

Irieguy

[KingDan]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude has 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and I chuckle a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]



Though I think your playing is pretty sweet[ie ballsy], I think it sucks.

This helped me out... it helped me start to fold some hands.

ME
"Too often I just do something [censored] stupid in early levels... I will call with overpair even though its painfully obvious I'm lost. "




I think that most players, myself included, have these moments.


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The worst thing about these moments are the few seconds there where your mind does the great flip flops between:

1) Oh come on, but this guy is a tool! So is that overcaller! Yeah, that's it. They both have top pair! They're so dumb. I'm so smart.

and

2) Alright, this is the last one. If I'm behind this time, I'll have officially learned my lesson, and start giving the average player at this limit respect when I'm in this spot in the future.

[censored] brain, trying to play tricks on me.

citanul


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You forgot to mention calling, "knowing you're beat", and then getting shown Q high, at which point you think you're smart again. For awhile.
easybay

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude has 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and I chuckle a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a weirdo...puts no pressure on you on the flop with two cards to make his draw, then bluffs big on the river once he's missed.

EDIT...err, spoke too soon...not sure anymore that just calling on the flop isn't the stronger line for Villain. thoughts?

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no way that calling this river is profitable long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think his bet screamed bluff. I figure to be ahead over half the time here. Only have to be ahead over 33% to make it profitable. What do you put him on?

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it that whenever someone makes a play like this and it works they feel the need to post it and show off their 'poker skills'

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know me at all.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dude has 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and I chuckle a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a weirdo...puts no pressure on you on the flop with two cards to make his draw, then bluffs big on the river once he's missed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you being sarcastic Ilya? I can't tell on the internet.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see that flop and my first instinct is to check/call and bluff any of the 3552529 scare cards on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a much better line, IMO.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

How do the two of you bluff the turn? Lead out, check-raise? How big? Does it matter which scare card hits?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I really like your thinking on the hand, but couldn't put my finger on why I didn't like the line. I think the reason I don't like it is because I feel like he is calling the turn alot with just a draw if you don't have any reads on him (he basically did call with just a draw, so this is what I'm getting at). Most drawing hands are ahead of you just becaue they likely have a card higher than a 9 in it. I like the river given how the rest of the hand went, but I don't think you can fire two barrels on this board because of the many times you lose to a high card.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I don't hit my pair on the river, I plan on betting again, which should fold most of his missed draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is incredibly wreckless. Three barrels on no read doesn't sound like a profitable play to me.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dude has 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and I chuckle a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a weirdo...puts no pressure on you on the flop with two cards to make his draw, then bluffs big on the river once he's missed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you being sarcastic Ilya? I can't tell on the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I thought for a sec that he should raise on the flop. Then I realized he has tons of bluff outs if he just calls, and also that you're way too likely to re-raise on the flop. I imagine there are other factors I'm missing?

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dude has 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and I chuckle a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a weirdo...puts no pressure on you on the flop with two cards to make his draw, then bluffs big on the river once he's missed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you being sarcastic Ilya? I can't tell on the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I thought for a sec that he should raise on the flop. Then I realized he has tons of bluff outs if he just calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fine with his flop call, although I'd raise it up if I were him. I think he should've dumped the turn, and checked behind on the river.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Dude has 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif and I chuckle a little bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a weirdo...puts no pressure on you on the flop with two cards to make his draw, then bluffs big on the river once he's missed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you being sarcastic Ilya? I can't tell on the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I thought for a sec that he should raise on the flop. Then I realized he has tons of bluff outs if he just calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fine with his flop call, although I'd raise it up if I were him. I think he should've dumped the turn, and checked behind on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh. Yeah, I agree about the river, I think the bluff is too obvious, and there's a chance his hand is good if you've been semi-bluffing. I don't mind the turn call much as he has so many real+ (good) bluff outs.
I thought you were saying that raising the flop would have been preposterous.
Actually I think his calling line was better. He runs a big risk of getting shut out if he raises the flop, and even if he gets flat-called he still doesn't figure to get paid off huge if he hits his real outs. Calling, OTOH, lets him bluff-raise any heart and perhaps and board pairing on the turn.