somewhat old KQs hand from my notes

[milesdyson]

i was just looking over some random hands, and i found this one. i thought it was interesting. what i have written (and their stats, which i may or may not have had access to at the time):

KQs 12584 coldcaller's an idiot lag

MP: 57/12/1.5 (65 hands)
Button: 50/13.2/1 (68 hands)

even though they have similar stats, button was really on a tear at this table (MP was not). because of that i probably only saw him play good hands well, and i used to only take notes on the bad players (at least who i thought looked bad). that said, here's the hand:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

River: (18.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font> ...

[Russ McGinley]

Based on his river call I would discount Button beating you now so its really a matter of this MP1. I can't see AJ or J9 playing this way so I'm not worried about that. A check/3-bet on the turn isn't done by a heart flush draw so I'm not worried there. The only hands I can really put MP1 on is two pair or a set of deuces or eights. Also I suppose there is a chance he has Kh-xh.

Button looks like he has AA/AK/AQ FWIW.

[milesdyson]

this is a good post.

[gharp]

First of all, congrats on the CarpalTunnely-ness of this post.

Second, I like that river raise. I think at worst you're chopping with idiot LAGs KQ, button's AA is no good, and your raise is making him pay a bit extra to the both of you. And at best you're beating some crap that idiot lag is holding (like K8) too.

[Redd]

Why didn't you check-raise the flop?

I'm a little worried that you're behind the Button and that he's afraid of the flush. I'm a little too weak tight in these situations.

I'm interested though in why you didn't lead or c/r the flop.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you check-raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[milesdyson]

i made a mistake in posting those stats. this hand was the 16th at the table - enough for me to think MP was really terrible and that button was actually good.

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you check-raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
because i really didn't care about MP calling and i'm either way ahead or way behind button (if he has AA i have 5 outs, but AK, AQ, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, and 99 all fall into the category). my position also sucks later in the hand.

i'm not, however, saying that i am sure i'm right, because i'm not. i still would play this hand the same way if it ever happened again, fwiw.

[Sightless]

Id Check Raise the flop -_- to see where you are in a hand

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Id Check Raise the flop -_- to see where you are in a hand

[/ QUOTE ]
tell me what to do when i pay for that information.

Not put in as many bets on the big streets when you're behind? This has a lot to do with what you think Buttons 3-bet range, and how much you think you really learn from any aggression he puts in on the flop. I don't really play a lot of 6-max so it's hard for me to interpret his stats and his play.

[milesdyson]

something that really sucks is that he can fold 99/TT/JJ to the flop check raise, and he can call the check raise with AA/KK/QQ and raise the turn (and i then have to call the turn raise).

try not to look at his stats as this was only my 16th hand with him.

[ArturiusX]

Sorry, but this hand was played like a 40/5 party fish.

[milesdyson]

and this is a terrible post.

tell me how to play it.

[car ramrod]

You say button is actually pretty good, so I am assuming he is not 3betting pf with out AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, maybe TT and AQs

Now what is he willing to cap the turn with, QQ, KK, maybe AK, but not sure. So, you only beat AK.

I think I would have check raised the flop to see if he slows down, and then gets frisky again on the turn.

Now we also have MP in the hand. He could hold a variety of hands, but with the /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the river, plus the button (who is probably just slowing down b/c of the flush) then I would just call the river.

[GTSamIAm]

I'd consider folding to the turn double bet. It looks like button has a set of queens or kings. He went ahead and capped after MP3 check/3-bet. You probably have MP3 beat, unless he has a weaker set, which is a likely holding. I think between MP3 and button, though, you're probably beaten.

Looking at the river, these reads fit alright. MP3 probably has at least a set, he may have had AJh or JTh or maybe even T9h, and gotten tricky on the turn. Button may be going for overcalls on a scary board. I don't like the raise at all. You were drawing to a boat on the turn and you missed.

[milesdyson]

well you're basically saying i'm drawing dead on the turn, so my full house draw is pointless anyway (which could be the case). i just don't see how he can flat call the river bet with KK/QQ after the turn action (he can only have KK or QQ one way each anyway). and since the guy 3-betting is a lag, i could totally imagine him capping AK or AA here, and there are 6 combos of AA and 8 combos of AK. if he would cap with all of them on the turn, 14/16 times i'm ahead, so i can't really fold the turn.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
i was just looking over some random hands, and i found this one. i thought it was interesting. what i have written (and their stats, which i may or may not have had access to at the time):

KQs 12584 coldcaller's an idiot lag

MP: 57/12/1.5 (65 hands)
Button: 50/13.2/1 (68 hands)

even though they have similar stats, button was really on a tear at this table (MP was not). because of that i probably only saw him play good hands well, and i used to only take notes on the bad players (at least who i thought looked bad). that said, here's the hand:

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

River: (18.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font> ...

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see what the river raise is accompishing here.

forgetting the reads, and treating them as unknowns: an unknown just woke up on the turn and check-3bet a pf raiser and 3-bettor. the pf 3-better then caps the turn. i can see calling the 2 bets on the turn, since you have outs (and hell, maybe they are crazy) -- but i don't like the river raise at all.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't see what the river raise is accompishing here.

forgetting the reads, and treating them as unknowns: an unknown just woke up on the turn and check-3bet a pf raiser and 3-bettor. the pf 3-better then caps the turn. i can see calling the 2 bets on the turn, since you have outs (and hell, maybe they are crazy) -- but i don't like the river raise at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
well don't forget the read on MP. when i write "idiot lag" in my notes it means what it says. the one type of player more pointlessly aggressive gets tagged a maniac, so he's up there (i don't remember why i wrote this, but he must have done something pretty bad).

read my post above and look at hand combos that the 3-bettor would have. any amount of hand reading would tell him that neither of us have a flush on that river, so he should still be aggressive. i see him simply call the bet and my take is that he does have AK or AA. so i'm raising for value and i really don't mind if i get 3-bet by the lag.

[tiltaholic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't see what the river raise is accompishing here.

forgetting the reads, and treating them as unknowns: an unknown just woke up on the turn and check-3bet a pf raiser and 3-bettor. the pf 3-better then caps the turn. i can see calling the 2 bets on the turn, since you have outs (and hell, maybe they are crazy) -- but i don't like the river raise at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
well don't forget the read on MP. when i write "idiot lag" in my notes it means what it says. the one type of player more pointlessly aggressive gets tagged a maniac, so he's up there (i don't remember why i wrote this, but he must have done something pretty bad).

read my post above and look at hand combos that the 3-bettor would have. any amount of hand reading would tell him that neither of us have a flush on that river, so he should still be aggressive. i see him simply call the bet and my take is that he does have AK or AA. so i'm raising for value and i really don't mind if i get 3-bet by the lag.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok. then i was a little confused about that then.
if MP is still an idiot lag and button is an unknown, YHILG and i like the raise a lot more. however, QQ and KK (likely for button) will also slow down when the 3rd flush card hits sometimes...since i'm generally a wuss i probably don't raise the river (however my river play alternates between spew and weak/tight - so i dunno)

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
well you're basically saying i'm drawing dead on the turn, so my full house draw is pointless anyway (which could be the case). i just don't see how he can flat call the river bet with KK/QQ after the turn action (he can only have KK or QQ one way each anyway). and since the guy 3-betting is a lag, i could totally imagine him capping AK or AA here, and there are 6 combos of AA and 8 combos of AK. if he would cap with all of them on the turn, 14/16 times i'm ahead, so i can't really fold the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think button is capping the turn w/ AK, maybe AA. Also, I am a little worried about the lag leading the river after all the turn action when the 3rd /images/graemlins/heart.gif hits. Unless he is a complete maniac that would do this?

I think you're giving him way too much credit for hand reading. I really think you are behind like 80-90% of the time here.

[milesdyson]

maybe he'll lead the third heart because he thinks it will scare everyone? i don't know, but i don't see why we'd expect anyone to have a flush here often at all. i understand the fear that perhaps button is scared of the flush, but not enough to outweigh the fact that there are only two hands he could have that beat me and fourteen others i beat which are possible given his turn play (and that MP is a lag).

button got check raised by both of us on the turn... most players can figure out that we aren't going to be doing that with a flush draw.

[KingOtter]

One of my biggest problems in my game at the moment is when I see a lag betting, raising and I have half a hand I try to learn him a lesson. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I rarely give them credit for hands, and I should. I think I learned that play from reading hands like this.

MP's play here is classic set-play, IMO. Maybe it is different between full ring and 6-max, and maybe Mr. Idiot is playing a top pair or 2-pair like this, but even Idiots get hands.

Maybe you won this hand and you rock at poker, but I think you're behind here a vast majority of the time. I also don't think whatever concepts you're trying to illustrate with this hand are very widely applicable.

KO

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
I also don't think whatever concepts you're trying to illustrate with this hand are very widely applicable.

[/ QUOTE ]
i don't think there's a specific concept, and i'm not trying to illustrate anything. like i said earlier, this hand is up for debate. i just think this hand is fun to dissect.

as far as the rest of your post goes, i agree with worrying more about what the lag has than the other dude, but i still think i beat enough of the hands he plays this way to make the river raise profitable.

88 and 22 would play it like this, but i have to think he would go crazy on the flop with K/images/graemlins/heart.gifX/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]

i don't think there's a specific concept, and i'm not trying to illustrate anything. like i said earlier, this hand is up for debate. i just think this hand is fun to dissect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's fun to watch idiots play and scratch your head and wonder what the hell they were thinking.

But perhaps a 'Kids, don't try this at home' disclaimer for this hand might be needed... /images/graemlins/smile.gif This is not ABC poker, nor standard. This is you with a specific read that this guy will pump a lesser hand, and you taking advantage of it.

He couldn't imagine he would be able to push anyone out of this hand, especially in 6-max. So either he's tired of having so much money at the table, or he has 22 (IMO, he'd probably cap 88 pf, no?).

KO

[milesdyson]

no i don't think he thought he could blow anyone off their hands, but i've seen many a time someone just bet their hand again on a "scare" card for whatever reason.

one thing... if i simply called this river, would the hand be ABC/boring?

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
the fact that there are only two hands he could have that beat me and fourteen others i beat which are possible given his turn play

[/ QUOTE ]

If your read on button is that he is willing to bet/cap the turn with AK, and the lag/maniac will lead the river with a low set, then by all means raise.

But, I think a good read is needed to even think about raising this river. (not saying you didn't have that read) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[KingOtter]

[ QUOTE ]
no i don't think he thought he could blow anyone off their hands, but i've seen many a time someone just bet their hand again on a "scare" card for whatever reason.

one thing... if i simply called this river, would the hand be ABC/boring?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes... for some reason I had thought you capped it on the turn so that may have caused some of my chagrin. Had he not I would have called the 3-bet. Would you have capped it?

KO

[ErrantNight]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you check-raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

because check/call is fine.

[milesdyson]

if button just called mp's 3-bet, yes i would cap the turn.

[milesdyson]

for fun, the results. split 3-way with KQ... <font color="white">nope, button has AQ somehow and MP has K8.</font>