Implied Odds: two scenarios

[PorscheNGuns]

I'd like to discuss a couple of implied odds situations and maybe someone can add a few. These might seem obvious to some but if not, post your thoughts...

I find that when I flop top set, yet there is a flush or a straight possible (and completed by the opponent), that drawing to the boat, 99% of the time, gives you 0 implied odds, as in once that board pairs, even at the low limits they will give up the pot with nut flush/straight. I'll still draw at it with the right immediate pot odds, which is somewhat frequent at the low stakes tables.

On the flip side, if I flop even an 8 out straight draw, and especially a 13 or 17 outer, but there is also 2 of the same suit on the flop, cutting outs down, I still draw at it if the pot odds are close for that turn card, because if I hit while the flush doesnt, most of the time that flush draw will put in a pot size bet to see that river card, and I profit greatly off of that mistake. If the board however is paired on the flop, I dont go in for this draw, and if the flush connects on the river or board pairs, I give up as well.

Thoughts?

-Matt

[PorscheNGuns]

Party Poker (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hand converter is screwed up for PLO Hi but I improvised.


SB ($35.64)
BB ($17.55)
UTG ($32.93)
UTG+1 ($13.20)
MP1 ($3.50)
MP2 ($14.47)
MP3 ($12.25)
Hero ($43.13)
Button ($24)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: ($0.35) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(9 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets $2</font>, MP3 calls $2, Hero calls $2 (with incorrect pot odds) , UTG folds.

Turn: K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks. (bad card, play over)

River: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot:

[autobet]

When you have top set that is the nuts at the time you are not drawing. True you can fill, usually killing the action on the turn. Your opponents are drawing, and they are the ones getting implied odds.

I usually won't call a pot sized bet with an open end draw if a flush draw is out as I only have six outs. It is usually correct to draw to a 13 outer expecially if most of your outs are to the nuts. 17 and 20 outers are no brainers and you can consider raising with these even with a flush draw out.

[joewatch]

This is a tricky one and I don't think there is 1 right answer. I think it depends on your table conditions and your reads.

I do think that a 13-out str8 draw and 17-out str8 draw are worth it even when there is a 2-flush on the board, but only if it's head-up and you have position. Without position, you don't have the correct implied odds, especially against a tight villain. If it's not head-up, you might be splitting with somebody with the same or better draw.

[PorscheNGuns]

Top set with 3 suits down isnt the nut hand and is drawing to a boat.

Also, a 13 outer isnt a 13 outer if there are two suits down, since you have to factor out the straight cards that make flushes. Likewise with the 17 and 20 outers.

-Matt

[wickss]

[ QUOTE ]
On the flip side, if I flop even an 8 out straight draw, and especially a 13 or 17 outer, but there is also 2 of the same suit on the flop, cutting outs down, I still draw at it if the pot odds are close for that turn card, because if I hit while the flush doesnt, most of the time that flush draw will put in a pot size bet to see that river card, and I profit greatly off of that mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]
What about the guy that also makes the nuts straight on the turn but now has a flush redraw against you?

[PorscheNGuns]

Yeah you run into that sometimes I guess. Then again, I could pick up the nut straight with a new flush redraw as well.

-Matt

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]

I find that when I flop top set, yet there is a flush or a straight possible (and completed by the opponent), that drawing to the boat, 99% of the time, gives you 0 implied odds, as in once that board pairs, even at the low limits they will give up the pot with nut flush/straight.


[/ QUOTE ]
So, are you saying that if you didn't have a set you could give yourself bluff outs when the board pairs because your opponents never call? You'd actually be better off not holding the set because there would be fewer dead cards. Do you really hardly ever get paid off? How much do you bet when you hit?

James