Is o8 a limpers game? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

gergery

09-12-2005, 05:51 PM

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Check out O8poker (http://www.o8poker.com/), click on "strategy" then "preflop raising".

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Shame that what he writes is complete junk. You never raise AA4x preflop 'to eliminate opponents'. Jesus, that's just terrible advice. If I raise it and get 9 callers, i'm going to be extremely pleased. Only read it if you want to be utterly confounded by pointless advice.

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Ribbo is truly a master in the Art of Being a Troll.

Since his post is so instructive, let’s break it down to see why it’s so good.

1. He offers no competing argument. Every good Troll knows you don’t want to offer your own insight in a Troll-post. This just lets the original poster reply based on substantive argument, and opens yourself up to being wrong. Ribbo avoids this common trap, by sticking with the every popular, “Nyah, nyah, you’re a poopyhead” logic. Classic.

2. Tone of superiority. This is almost mandatory. Good trolls know you need to convey that you are somehow better than everyone else.

3. Personal attacks. This is closely related to the first two points. After all, if you’re not offering logic or alternatives, you’ve got to stir the pot somehow. Make sure you don’t use neutral words like ‘disagree’ when a more inflammatory one like ‘junk’ is available.

4. Mis-direction and exaggeration. This one is more subtle, but its clear that Ribbo read the original article then fixated on one small part to try and find fault with – the rationale behind raising (not the action of raising mind you, just the rationale!), missing the more important point the article makes – that determining your preflop raising objective is key.

5. The only real slip he makes is letting his petty jealousy show through. Reading that others like o8poker.com makes his penis feel small, so he’s got to compensate for this. But his envy is a little too obvious here. However, he only had 5 sentences to work with and he’s got lots of Trolling still to do today. Overall, good work.

--Greg
www.o8poker.com (http://www.o8poker.com)

Buzz

09-12-2005, 07:16 PM

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At limit o8 tables though, it seems like I'm the only one raising PF, why is this?

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KneeCo - There are no baby mule deer in Yellowstone park (or probably anywhere) that chase wolves. That’s because all the fawns that chased wolves have been eaten.

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It seems to me that if I have a good hand, which I believe is the best hand, I have to raise it up, no?

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No.

You’re not quite correct that there are no pre-flop raisers at limit-Omaha-8 tables. Once in a while a Texas hold ‘em regular like you sits down and usually raises when entering the action. And unlike fawns that chase wolves, someone who usually raises before the flop in an Omaha-8 game, even playing against seasoned, decent limit-Omaha-8 players, can get lucky and survive for a while, or even be successful for a while.

And sometimes veteran Omaha-8 regulars will raise before the flop. I can’t speak for everyone, but for me, more than the actual cards I have been dealt, raising or not depends on who is in the game and what I think the effect of the raise will be. You don’t necessarily earn more with a premium starting hand by raising before the flop. Against some groups of opponents, I think you probably do, but against players who know the game well, I think you don’t.

And raising before the flop without nice starting cards, unless you have a very good specific reason, is probably generally not very wise. (Raising before the flop to get more money into the pot when you have a good starting hand may sound to you like a good enough specific reason, but you don't necessarily win more money by playing that way).

Watching some Texas hold ‘em regulars play limit-Omaha-8 is kind of like watching a young dog on a beach with a flock of sea gulls. The dog will run at the seagulls and they will take flight and scatter. Since I’ve seen that a lot of times but I’ve never actually seen a dog catch a sea gull, I think it’s probably not a very successful strategy for a dog, if hungry, to rush a flock of sea gulls. In other words, there’s probably a better way for a hungry dog to catch a sea gull. (But if the dog has fun doing it, that’s a different matter).

In a similar way, when you sit down at a passive limit-Omaha-8 game and begin raising when you enter the action, you’ll disturb the sea gulls - but I’m not sure you’ll catch any.

Why don’t veteran limit-Omaha-8 players raise when they enter the action? Well... some do - especially successful tournament players when playing in tournaments.

But in a limit ring game involving seasoned limit-Omaha-8 ring game regulars, the norm, as you have noticed, is for the game to be rather passive before the flop. (But it doesn’t necessarily remain passive after the flop).

Why don’t veteran limit-Omaha-8 ring game players usually raise when they enter the action before the flop in a full game? Who can say? I imagine they think they will be more successful by not raising.

But although the young dog may not catch any, it does make life more difficult for the sea gulls by rushing at them. I think to have long range success you do need to do some pre-flop raising, if only to mix up your game and confuse your opponents. There seem to be different successful styles of play, involving different propensities for pre-flop raising.

But maybe you shouldn’t want to _ always, or even usually raise before the flop - and maybe you shouldn’t want to always raise with certain types of hands from certain positions. For example, a raise from early position to limit the field with a hand that does better one-on-one than against a full field seems logical, as does a greed raise from late position after many limpers with a hand that has a good chance to make the nut low. But if your opponents are going to put you on those hands when you do come in for a raise, you telegraph your holding when you raise, and even though you may make more money from the first betting round when you do win, you don’t necessarily make more money on the second, third, and fourth rounds by playing that way.

There are various ways around this dilemma. You make it very tough for your opponents to play against you when you frequently shift gears, or do some raising at random - when you mix it up.

But maybe if you’re a hungry young dog on a beach you don’t want the sea gulls all flying around overhead, even though you do make life tougher for them. Maybe if you’re playing in a nice, profitable, loose, passive Omaha-8 game you don’t want to cause the sea gulls to become alarmed.

One big difference between Texas hold ‘em and Omaha-8 is the high-low-split nature of Omaha-8. Another big difference is that if your starting hand has four different ranks of cards (no pairs), then there are six different two card combinations within your four cards. It’s not exactly the same as having your choice between six different Texas hold ‘em hands, but it’s in-between that and having one Texas hold ‘em hand. You - _and all your opponents have a variety of ways to find a fit with the flop and then (what really counts) the five-card board on the river.

It’s easy to know which cards you want in your starting hand to make a winning (or tying) low hand. But the object of the game really is to scoop. Before you see any board cards, it’s very difficult to predict which particular two cards you will want to be holding on the river to make a winning high hand.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

MyTurn2Raise

09-12-2005, 07:54 PM

the raising before the flop question comes up again and again...I think Baldwin/Gregorich's chapter in SS2 explained it best for me in a way that made theoretical and practical sense. I suggest looking at that.

gergery

09-12-2005, 07:55 PM

You are starting to sound a lot like Ray Zee with his owls!

And that is a high compliment indeed....

IHateKeithSmart

09-12-2005, 08:01 PM

Buzz, you rule. Gergery, speaking of zee - this characteristic of o8 games is what made me switch from hold 'em WRT ring games (still play tourneys). Zee says you should find a game that fits your personality, and that Omaha8 can be better suited for less aggressive players. I find that to be very true in my case. If I look at my PT numbers, my pfr is almost zero, and my af goes up as streets progress (as the hand unfolds and I get a feel for where I'm at).

Mendacious

09-12-2005, 08:39 PM

I play ALOT more PL than limit now, and it is my impression that Ribbo does too. That being said. I somewhat agree with his advice. I don't think you raise pre-flop in limit Omaha to eliminate opponents, you raise for value. In limit, when I enter a pot, I want it to be large, and I want a hand that can become the nuts. AA4x may not be the best example of such a hand, but that isn't really the issue.

I'm not sure why everyone decided to pile on him here for his style of writing. He posted a different opinion, I don't think it was a personal attack. I generally find that when he posts in one of these threads it is with the intention of helping the player, and most often good concise advice.

Ironman

09-13-2005, 08:47 AM

There are a couple places where I think it is essential to raise preflop, but you won't find them happening much at your typical Party 1/2 full ring game.

When the game becomes short handed (5 players or less) means that you will probably find one limper and the blinds playing. If you are in the blinds and find yourself with a medium good hand...I like to raise it up.

When I've got a really good low hand at this same table, I will frequently just limp to bring as many people along for the ride as possible.

The second situation is actually very similar and every once in awhile I find it at the UB 2/4 and 3/6 games. The game for some reason gets really tight.

Late position last night in the cutoff, I found myself with a high pocket pair and an average low starting hand and did not raise...just limped. The blinds came along for the ride.

I lost control of that hand by not being aggressive early. It was a mistake.

Raising would have put the blinds on the defensive (maybe even got the SB to fold) and the hand would have played out much differently.

I'm not saying I would have won the pot, I might have even lost more, but there are good positional reasons at passive tables to raise.

Dave

Drizztdj

09-13-2005, 01:35 PM

Bet only for value if you're raising pre-flop, but its my personal view that Omaha 8 is more of a post-flop game.

FeliciaLee

09-13-2005, 01:48 PM

I'm not taking sides, because I'm sick enough to like both of you.

But in O8, I never think to myself, "I'm raising to eliminate opponents." I don't ever consider schooling in O8, in, fact, I always feel 'the more, the merrier.'

Now, had you said to raise so that you could use that A4 poor low to eliminate other, better low cards, like 23, that wanted to see a cheap flop, I could have gotten behind that statement easily.

Just my opinion, and I'm still playing the penny games, FWIW.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

pipes

09-13-2005, 02:13 PM

IMO Never raising preflop in O8b is a mistake that costs you alot of money.

In low limits, raising is mostly done for value in a late seat.

In shorthanded games you want to raise for value when you have a good hand in all positions as you will get calls. Also aggressive raising and 3 betting will win you shorthanded pots where you and your few opponents flop little.

In higher limit games, raising usually serves the same pupose as it does in hold'em..isolation, buying the button, taking the lead etc.

k_squared

09-13-2005, 04:38 PM

FWIW My understanding of why it is not a good strategy to raise pre-flop in a high-low game like omaha is that hands run much closer in value than in hold'em. You simply never have as significant an advantage as AA does in hold'em. The flop changes everything by making the best starting hands into utter crap when the board comes high with a rainbow. Your hands value greatly depends on the flop, much more so than in hold'em. In hold'em an unimporved AA wins in Omaha an unimproved AA23ss typically does not.

k_squared

Ribbo

09-13-2005, 05:18 PM

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FWIW My understanding of why it is not a good strategy to raise pre-flop in a high-low game like omaha is that hands run much closer in value than in hold'em. You simply never have as significant an advantage as AA does in hold'em. The flop changes everything by making the best starting hands into utter crap when the board comes high with a rainbow. Your hands value greatly depends on the flop, much more so than in hold'em. In hold'em an unimporved AA wins in Omaha an unimproved AA23ss typically does not.

k_squared

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That's not called an 'understanding of Omaha', that's called an 'ignorance of omaha'. The sad thing is you really do believe what you are writing. AA23 is the single most profitable omaha/8 hand, and just because you're playing limit does not change this fact. Is it possible for you to spout any more meaningless drivel than this?

Mendacious

09-13-2005, 05:34 PM

Well I might have put this a little differently... Ribbo appears slightly less patient than normal today.

The fact that one hand is not as much of a favorite pre-flop as some hands are in Holdem does not mean that you should not raise the hand for value pre-flop. What it actually means is that people should be LESS inclined to fold to your pre-flop raise because chances are they are not that big of an underdog. So in my view you definately do not raise in limit to chase. The question that remains is should you raise at all?

So far I have not heard a good arguement for why not! An edge is an edge. Moreover, the fact that the hands become much more well defined on the flop than in holdem is NOT a reason not to raise. If you are a better player, the fact that you know whether to fold or not on the flop will SAVE you money, not cost you money. So your raise will not lock you into poor play (however it may tempt your poorer opponent to stick with hands that are close, but hopelessly behind.

BettyBoopAA

09-13-2005, 05:59 PM

Most posters seem to play in low limit games where many people see the flop and raising doesn't make the game tighter. In these games it is correct to raise before the flop for value. Very good hands run close to value but against bad players they're calling with junk anyway so you make them pay for their preflop mistake.
At higher stakes vs good players, one should raise to thin the field when you have a hand that plays better vs fewer opponents. In this game, you have to ask yourself will my raise knock out opponents and proceed accordingly.
It's a mistake to raise with A 2 hands if you knock out the A 3 before the flop and in tight games that's what happens.

Mendacious

09-13-2005, 06:08 PM

fair enough.

Mr_J

09-13-2005, 08:45 PM

How about raising to isolate a poor opponent...

Or maybe to isolate the blinds who likely have a worse hands and have to play out of position.

gergery

09-13-2005, 09:33 PM

Let’s clear a few things up.

First off, no one argued “Raise AA4 because you want to eliminate opponents”. This thread got started because Ribbo took one statement from I made on the o8poker.com site, condensed it down out of context to an inaccurate simplification, and then argue that the thinking behind it was wrong.

Second, if you read my post at o8poker on preflop raising, you will see that the primary point I communicate is that your decision to preflop raise/not raise is first and foremost tied to what objective you want to accomplish. Then I note that with AA4 you WANT CALLERS and will make money. I merely note that in certain circumstances you can MAKE EVEN MORE MONEY if everyone folds. Or you can have hand that plays well vs. a big field, BUT EVEN BETTER against a small field. Specifically, I mention tight tables where you might win the blinds outright. I’d add that raising with AA4 can also get hands like A3 or 23 to fold when you want them folding. Note that I am not speaking of loose low limit tables.

Third, Ribbo and Mendacious both seem to think that simply because your hand has an edge over another hand in twodimes, then that means you should raise. This is false for reasons that Buzz pointed out in his excellent Dog-Seagull post. Namely, you scare people away and won’t get paid off on later streets, and moreover, the value of position can more than negate a relatively small preflop edge. There are several different styles that can be successful in O8, but the passive one can have much greater success here than just about any other poker game I’ve seen.

--Greg

Mendacious

09-13-2005, 10:17 PM

I don't think I advocated predictably raising with every statistical edge. Obviously there is more to it. My point is that it is that L08 does not have to be a limpers game. It makes sense in MANY MANY situations to raise pre-flop for value, even if your edge is nowhere near the 3-1 or 4-1 edges you can get in holdem.

k_squared

09-14-2005, 01:14 PM

the question is why should you raise a hand with a marginal advantage if that puts you in a position to not have a more significant advantage to press later? How much value do you gain from making the raise now, and how much do you lose later? Does raising define your hand in omaha? Would you raise a hand that didn't have a low draw? If the answer is no then it seems you are giving away a lot of information about your hand pre-flop information that can easily be used to dominate you based on the flop conditions.

What hands do you advocate raising with?

Furthermore, I am not suggesting that raising is something that should never be done. Rather, I believe that raising is much more positional and situational than in hold'em. I don't see what the point of defining your hand to a field of players is by raising your AA23ss into 4 limpers. With 3 low cards you only have a 40% chance of making a low pre-flop. Why invest that raise pre-flop, and declare your strength when you have a field of limpers? Why not just let the flop come and if it gives you a strong hand or draw pump the pot at that point?

How much value do you actually derive from raising AA23ss pre-flop? How often will that hand pay off? How much of an advantage does it have over K-Q-J-10ss of different suits? How much advantage does it have against a random hand? How does the hands value change when in a multi-way pot? I imagine that the more multi-way it is the more chance the low gets quartered and the high is won by someone else.

The flop has a huge impact on this game. Your pre-flop equity is significantly less than in hold'em in part because of the fact that it is a high-low game and in part because you have more cards from which to make a hand. With a reduced amount of equity the question of whether or not to raise becomes one that is largely dependent upon meta-game questions of how opponents respond, position, and what your image is. The reason you won't see people open raising with any hand they play, which would be a strategy employed by many winning TAG hold'em players, is that they don't have the same pre-flop edge, and so put the money in when they have a larger edge.

Ribbo - are you telling me that AA23ss typically wins pots, as in more than 50% of the time? I can tell you AA wins pots significantly more than 50% of the time. I was not saying that AA23ss is not a good hand, what I was saying is that when you compare it to other starting hands the difference in strength is significantly less than AA to anyother hold'em starting hand.

Furthermore, you should try to be more respectful of people posting. It is okay to disagree but you did it in a very rude way. At no point did I even suggest aa23 is unprofitable as you seem to imply. Perhaps you should read more carefully. FWIW I guess it would be "possible for me to spout more meaningless drivel than that" seeing as your reply clearly fits into that category. The only thing of value you said was that AA23 was a winning hand... which was not even a contended point. If you truly think AA23ss has a larger edge over other hands than AA then explain why rather than writing the sort of reply that tends to drive intelligent and curious people off of these boards rather than engaging them in the task of deepening our understanding of poker.

k_squared

Ribbo

09-14-2005, 02:16 PM

You're not interested in winning pots, you're interested in winning money, the two things are fundamentally exclusive of each other. Bad Omaha players win a lot more pots than good ones. AA23 wins MONEY. You should raise ANY edge you have on any street, this is how you win money, this is not how you win pots, but you don't care about winning pots.
Now you ask "why declare your strength". Well sure, if you're a complete rock you're going to give your hand away. But good players raise a wide variety of profitable preflop hands. A345 falls into this range, and if the flop comes AK5 and people want to believe I have AA, then that's just great with me. Your preflop selection of hands is the single contributing factor in limit O8 to whether or not you will be a successful player.
If you think a small edge is "meaningless" I suggest to you to take a walk down Las Vegas strip. All those buildings were built on a 3% edge at roulette or craps etc.

FeliciaLee

09-14-2005, 02:26 PM

Yes, exactly. A4 was just one example, mostly copied from Ray's book.

pipes

09-14-2005, 03:43 PM

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Furthermore, you should try to be more respectful of people posting. It is okay to disagree but you did it in a very rude way. At no point did I even suggest aa23 is unprofitable as you seem to imply. Perhaps you should read more carefully.

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Sure Ribbo comes off as a little rude, but what's most important is that he is giving good advice here. I'll take good advice from an azz anyday rather than bad advice from a super polite guy.

But I reread your post and it does seem that you suggest that raising AA23ds preflop is a bad idea as you still need to hit the flop to win. To win the most money possible you must raise good hands, especially in late position with many loose limpers.

cjs

09-14-2005, 04:21 PM

And Ribbo's cute too!

MortalWombat

09-14-2005, 04:23 PM

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I'm not sure why everyone decided to pile on him here for his style of writing. He posted a different opinion, I don't think it was a personal attack.

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Three out of the five sentences in his reply where the following:

1. Shame that what he writes is complete junk.
2. Jesus, that's just terrible advice.
3. Only read it if you want to be utterly confounded by pointless advice.

Now, I am far from an expert on Omaha, and Ribbo's opinions may very well be correct. I don't know, since I am still learning.

But there's an old saying that goes something like "you can catch more flies with honey than by stepping on their neck and spitting in their face." Or something like that.

yimyammer

09-14-2005, 04:38 PM

Great reply Buzz.

Your analogies cracked me up. I kept thinking of the movie Swingers when Vince Vaughan was referring to the girls they was hitting on as bunny rabbits and his buddy as the tiger with big claws

Buzz

09-14-2005, 06:38 PM

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You're not interested in winning pots, you're interested in winning money,

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Ribbo - Yes! I agree completely!

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You should raise ANY edge you have on any street, this is how you win money,

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That's not necessarily true. Sometimes you can win more money by somehow luring more opponents into paying more on later betting rounds. For example, when you flop quad kings from late position on second street, with an off-suit queen as the third flop card, and when somebody in early position bets and gets three limpers, maybe you don't want to pull the trigger just yet.

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this is not how you win pots,

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That's not necessarily true either. Sometimes you can raise before the flop, limiting the field in the process, and knocking out someone who would otherwise have beaten you.

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but you don't care about winning pots.

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Sure you do. You can't win any money if you don't win any pots.

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But good players raise a wide variety of profitable preflop hands.

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True.

Styles differ among good players. Raising frequencies vary. Someone who raises with a good starting hand isn't necessarily a better player than someone who doesn't.

You and I will probably never agree on how often one should raise before the flop. In my humble opinion, whether or not you raise before the flop very much more depends on the particular opponents you're playing (and how they play) than on the cards you have been dealt. Obviously I don't mean you should be raising with garbage, at least very often.

Your playing style is not the same as mine. I imagine you make your playing style work for you and whether you do or not, and whether I could make your style work for me or not, I very much appreciate reading your point of view. Gives me insight into a different way of looking at things.

I can't play like Mike Cappelletti. I get my butt kicked when I try. He's obviously a very intelligent man, and I believe he makes his style work for him. But I just can't seem make it work for me. I've incorporated some elements of his game into my own, but other tactics he suggests backfire on me when I try to use them. However, I think knowing more about how he plays and also how you play helps my game.

So thank you for your useful insights.

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Your preflop selection of hands is the single contributing factor in limit O8 to whether or not you will be a successful player.

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I've read that opinion elsewhere. And I agree starting hand selection is very important. I've spent thousands of hours simulating, figuring, and thinking about starting hands, and it's an on-going study for me. I wouldn't bother with that if I didn't think starting hand selection was very important.

However:
(1) I think I win more from opponents who don't know when to quit than from those who see the flop with too many hands.
(2) In some games I can get away with seeing the flop cheaply with lots of hands I consider marginal. But I only rarely get away with continuing after the flop with a hand that doesn't have much chance of success.
(3) There are four betting rounds - not just one - not just the first betting round. The amount you and your opponents invest on the three betting rounds after the flop is generally more than you invest on the first betting round.
(4) You have more information at your disposal on each successive betting round. Assuming you are capable of using the information available, the more the better.
(5) I can make a better decision as to the worth of the cards I have been dealt after I see how my hand meshes with the flop than knowing how well the hand simulates before any board cards are known.
(6) Whoever has the best hand at any juncture if play stopped at that point does not matter unless play stops at that point. Otherwise the one who has the best hand on the river will prevail.

And therefore I think post flop play is at least as important as starting hand selection, if not more so.

I'll agree starting hand selection is very important. But it's not all there is to the game, or even most of it.

Lastly, you can't really tell when you have an edge before the flop. You can only know how your hand stands relative to random cards on the board and in the hands of your opponents. Whether or not you actually have an edge depends on the cards that will come to be on the board at the river, and also on what cards each of your opponents holds. For example, if you hold double suited kings and queens, a pretty nice starting hand, but if your opponents collectively hold all the missing kings and queens, then the main source of power for your hand is rendered useless. Doesn't mean you can't win with the hand, which still has flush and straight potential, but wouldn't it be a lot nicer to see a king or a queen on the flop?

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Buzz

09-14-2005, 06:47 PM

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what's most important is that he is giving good advice here.

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Pipes - I think not.

On the other hand, if you can make it work for you, then more power to you.

Buzz

Buzz

09-14-2005, 06:49 PM

Esactly.

pipes

09-14-2005, 09:33 PM

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what's most important is that he is giving good advice here.

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Pipes - I think not.

On the other hand, if you can make it work for you, then more power to you.

Buzz

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I think many people who are afraid to raise preflop in this game with a premium hand should read Small Stakes Hold'em. To maximize winnings you should take value wherever it exists.

I don't buy the argument that it reduces your equity on future streets. If anything it ties your opponents onto their hands. Because the pot is bigger they will hang onto non nut low draws, non nut flushes, and bottom two pair for dear life. With a bigger pot, you should loosen up a little as well but not too much. Its a win win situation.

Mendacious

09-14-2005, 10:54 PM

This is precisely what I was intending to say, but I think that it does apply more to smaller limits than higher limits.

Phat Mack

09-15-2005, 12:06 AM

k^2,

I like your post.

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the question is why should you raise a hand with a marginal advantage if that puts you in a position to not have a more significant advantage to press later? How much value do you gain from making the raise now, and how much do you lose later? Does raising define your hand in omaha? Would you raise a hand that didn't have a low draw? If the answer is no then it seems you are giving away a lot of information about your hand pre-flop information that can easily be used to dominate you based on the flop conditions.

What hands do you advocate raising with?

Furthermore, I am not suggesting that raising is something that should never be done. Rather, I believe that raising is much more positional and situational than in hold'em.

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I tend to raise BTF in limit O8 based solely on the situation. There are situations where if I'm going to play, I'm going to raise. None of these raises are predicated on hand strength. All of the raises are intended to create better situations on later streets, and all depend on position and opponents.

Making BTF raises based on hand strength gives up too much information. An analogous situation occurs on the river with players who refuse to raise with nut lows. The cost of getting quartered in limit O8 isn't as great as many players feel, and not raising only-low hands costs them when they raise their highs and scoopers.

Mack

P.S. As an aside, there were some great threads on raising all-high and A4xx hands on this forum about 5 years ago. They are hard to find since Badger, one of the participants, had his posts deleted, but they may be available elsewhere on the internet.

Wintermute

09-15-2005, 06:07 AM

The best time to raise preflop in a limit omaha game is when it limps around to you in the BB. What you do is this: get a sick, malicious grin on your face, announce "GOING UP!" or "GOING UP, MOTHERFCUKERS!" for added emphasis, and proudly slam in another 4 bucks. Then you get to sit back and enjoy watching the dealer poke each of the 7 or 8 crotchety old fart limpers awake in turn, explain to them that the pot was raised, hear each and every one of the dusty bastards croak out "who raised?!", dealer points to you (widen your grin at this moment), ancient fcuker will then glare at you with murderous intent and cough up the extra bet.

It's priceless fun, and will help your image immensely and make it easier to eventually walk out of the place with a solid chunk of liberated social security benefits.

Mendacious

09-15-2005, 08:30 AM

LOL-- That's pretty much how I learned Limit O8 in the Indian Casino.

Ironman

09-15-2005, 09:10 AM

Funniest friggin' post I've ever read...

Dave

Buzz

09-15-2005, 07:19 PM

Wintermute - It makes me sad that you saw fit to write that post.

I oppose discrimination. I think it's ugly. I'm not only talking about racial discrimination and gender discrimination - but also about age discrimination.

Anti-racial jokes and racial slurs show bad judgement, are in poor taste, and are a form of racial discrimination. There's just no way around it. And slurs against older folks are a form of age discrimination.

Having written the above, I can see an element humor in your post. But it's crude humor derived at the expense of a whole group of people.

It's unbecoming to you.

Buzz

Wintermute

09-15-2005, 07:41 PM

wait for it...

wait for it....

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a283/pfriedbe/baby-crying.jpg

Mendacious

09-15-2005, 09:04 PM

Babyhater!

gergery

09-15-2005, 09:38 PM

I will say the average age at the O8 table is always at least 20+ years older than the average age at limit or NL tables at my local casino.

Buzz

09-16-2005, 12:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think many people who are afraid to raise preflop in this game with a premium hand......

[/ QUOTE ]

Pipes - Are you implying I’m afraid to raise because I don’t advocate raising?

I’ve only been dealt the holy grail hand, AA23-double-suited, twice in my Omaha-8 playing career. And both times, as it turned out, I raised before the flop with it. One of those times, as it turned out, I was glad I raised before the flop and the other time, as it turned out, I wasn’t.

And I’ve raised before the flop with various other hands, both premium and non-premium.

With me, rightly or wrongly, raising or not before the flop with any hand, premium or non-premium, is a matter of considering what I think the effect of the raise will be on my opponents or on a specific opponent, not only on the current hand, but on future hands.

Can you not see that playing that way involves a much more complex reasoning process than woodenly raising before the flop with any premium hand?

Think about it.

[ QUOTE ]
.....should read Small Stakes Hold'em.

[/ QUOTE ]

All these suggestions for my further reading!

Well, thank you.

I bought a copy of that book several months ago and then got distracted by other things, put it aside intending to read it later, and forgot about it until I read your suggestion. I got it out last night, began reading, and finished Part One. I plan to read Part Two tonight. It’s very easy reading and is interesting to me. Seems like a very good book.

At any rate, thank you - and that’s not sarcastic.

[/ QUOTE ] To maximize winnings you should take value wherever it exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. I’ll have to think about that some more. At this point I disagree. Although I agree you do have to be able to "play good poker" - Omaha-8, in my humble opinion, does not play the same as Texas hold 'em. It seems to me you’re trying to apply Texas hold 'em strategies to Omaha-8. But gee... maybe that works for you.

I actually encounter that quite a bit (players applying Texas hold 'em strategies to Omaha-8). Of course some strategies apply to all games, perhaps with different emphasis.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't buy the argument that it reduces your equity on future streets.

[/ QUOTE ]

No? O.K. then don't buy it. I buy it, but you don’t have to.

[ QUOTE ]
If anything it ties your opponents onto their hands. Because the pot is bigger they will hang onto non nut low draws, non nut flushes, and bottom two pair for dear life.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of them?

I do think there is some truth to what you write, at least for some opponents and groups of opponents. But I don't think all opponents or groups of opponents are the same.

Buzz

Mr_J

09-16-2005, 12:43 AM

Always raising good hands is silly, hell even I know that. It can affect how players will play with you in future hands, and that effect could be a negative one.

One important thing that sngs have taught me is how you need to consider future EV. The best option now doesn't always give the most value. Sometimes in sngs you need to make a suboptimal play in order to maximise future opportunities (eg take a gamble with your stack to conserve folding equity). The same is true for other forms of poker, it's just not as obvious.

Buzz is right that there's different factors you need to take into account when choosing to raise. Will it knock players out? Do I want them out of the pot? Do I gain more EV know by putting as much of my money in as possible, or by letting opponents get attatched to inferior holdings? How does my raise affect my opponents perceive me? How will they react to future raises??

" To maximize winnings you should take value wherever it exists."

I totally agree. But sometimes value will mean just calling.

"I don't buy the argument that it reduces your equity on future streets."

Raising gives info away about your hand, and you may have knocked players out. It's possible that the negative effects of your raise outweigh the gains.

Just IMO, but I think anyone who does something blindly (like preflop raising) isn't seeing the whole picture.

Ribbo

09-16-2005, 05:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Always raising good hands is silly, hell even I know that. It can affect how players will play with you in future hands, and that effect could be a negative one.

One important thing that sngs have taught me is how you need to consider future EV. The best option now doesn't always give the most value. Sometimes in sngs you need to make a suboptimal play in order to maximise future opportunities (eg take a gamble with your stack to conserve folding equity). The same is true for other forms of poker, it's just not as obvious.

Buzz is right that there's different factors you need to take into account when choosing to raise. Will it knock players out? Do I want them out of the pot? Do I gain more EV know by putting as much of my money in as possible, or by letting opponents get attatched to inferior holdings? How does my raise affect my opponents perceive me? How will they react to future raises??

" To maximize winnings you should take value wherever it exists."

I totally agree. But sometimes value will mean just calling.

"I don't buy the argument that it reduces your equity on future streets."

Raising gives info away about your hand, and you may have knocked players out. It's possible that the negative effects of your raise outweigh the gains.

Just IMO, but I think anyone who does something blindly (like preflop raising) isn't seeing the whole picture.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're arguing apples and oranges. Tournament strategy does not apply to what started this discussion, which was a cash game. Nobody will disagree that in a tournament, you wont want to raise so often (particularily earlier in the tournament) preflop.

pokerswami

09-23-2005, 07:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
At limit o8 tables though, it seems like I'm the only one raising PF, why is this?

Is raising PF less common in o8 because it's impossible to have a made hand pf or what?

And more importantly than whether it's common or not, is whether it's the correct approach?

It seems to me that if I have a good hand, which I believe is the best hand, I have to raise it up, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe your respondents have entirely missed the correct answer. I don't play much Limit O8/B currently, buy I spent a year playing it live several times a week.

The reason that many Limit Omaha 8/B games have little pre-flop raising can be found on page 193 of Ray Zee's book, High-Low-Split Poker:

A lot of raising before the flop adds marginally to your profits, but it adds tremendously to your fluctuations.

There are several reasons players choose to play Limit O8/B from among the games currently spread. One of the main reasons that many players choose it is that if you know what you're doing and you're disciplined, you can play it with a smaller bankroll at a given limit than probably any other limit game commonly dealt.

Part of this knowledge and discipline includes playing at only full tables and normally playing with a mix of poor quality, very loose, calling stations and very loose, somewhat aggressive bettors.

If you want to play on an undersized bankroll and if you want to limit your fluctuations, then you will be able to best accomplish this by playing in a game where you have the opportunity to limp in pre-flop most of the time, if you decide to play a hand. If you're in a game where 6 to 7 or more of the 9 seated players limp in to see the flop and you know what you're doing, it can be a gold mine. I've played in games such as this.

A huge part of your profit in these games comes from very disciplined card selection. If you're the tightest player pre-flop in this type of game, you'll have a big advantage. If most flops can be seen without a raise, then you will have smaller fluctuations. But, because you're playing against poor quality, loose opponents, you can still make a good profit, especially relative to your bankroll size.

This effect is magnified in kill pot games. Suppose your game is $10.- $20. with a bet and 3 raises maximum and has a full kill. The minimum to limp in on a non-kill pot is $10., and in a kill pot the maximum to see the flop is $80, the $20. bet plus 3 raises.

Now suppose you're in this for the LONG RUN. Although every deal of the cards is a random event completely unrelated to the previous deals, we expect that over the long run there will be a distribution of hands that mirror the average distribution of hands. Now also suppose you only play hands that you believe have a positive expectation in your game. Here's the rub. Adding a pre-flop bet range of $10.-$80. will add ENORMOUSLY to your money fluctuations.

You can control what cards you play, but adding this huge volitility in pre-flop betting means that your bankroll swings will be amplified greatly.

If you are super aggressive and you want to generate big fluctuations and you can find willing cohorts, then this game can provide that. However, if you are the type of conservative, wait for good cards player that is often attracted by limit Omaha 8/B, then you want to avoid games with a lot of pre-flop raising.

Part of knowing how to play poker well is evaluating a game in progress and deciding if you want to play in it and how best to profit there. The present trend in conservative limit Omaha 8/B players is to discourage pre-flop raising because it adds to their fluctuations. Even if most players haven't thought it through as I've outlined it here, they eventually realize that they want to avoid the heavy pre-flop raising games or they just experience too many downswings for their taste/bankroll and give it up.

pipes

09-23-2005, 03:36 PM

[quote

The reason that many Limit Omaha 8/B games have little pre-flop raising can be found on page 193 of Ray Zee's book, High-Low-Split Poker:

A lot of raising before the flop adds marginally to your profits, but it adds tremendously to your fluctuations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Zee also says in the next paragraph that this does not apply if there are many terrible players in the pot. This is generally the case.

I find it amusing that Zee says when you have AA23ds, that you probably want to raise. Probably? If you are on the button with AA23ds with six limpers and you have to consider whether or not you should raise I don't think there's much of a future for you in any type of gambling.

I really like Baldwin's discussion of raising preflop in SS2. I think this is a much better resource for O8b than the Zee book.

I disagree that raising preflop only adds marginally to your profits but adds tremendously to your fluctuations. But even if it does, so what? IMO one should be playing at a level where there can play optimally.

For those of you have read Mason's Gambling Theory book, you'll recognize that raising in position preflop with a premium hand is a non-self weighting strategy. A good gambler is willing to deal with the fluctuations in order to maximize their bets when they have the best of it.

Ribbo

09-23-2005, 03:46 PM

I believe raising preflop adds tremendously to your profits and only increases your variance marginally. Go figure.

09-23-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I disagree that raising preflop only adds marginally to your profits but adds tremendously to your fluctuations. But even if it does, so what? IMO one should be playing at a little where there can play optimally.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because you're discounting the risk of ruin:

Let's say that your bankroll should be roughly eaqual to 4*variance/Expected Value.

In real life, of course, the bankroll is effectively fixed, so, if you can cut your variance in half for a 1 or 2% decrease in EV, you can take the same bankroll to a table with twice the stakes, and make twice as much money.

Therefore, variance-reducing play is valuable.

pipes

09-23-2005, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe raising preflop adds tremendously to your profits and only increases your variance marginally. Go figure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Many people say you lose money on future streets because you 'give away' your hand. I think you gain preflop as well as future streets.

On future streets you gain because you make the pot bigger and entice people to draw to non nut lows and highs. With your premium hand, you'll have the nuts or good draws to the nuts if you remain in the hand.

pipes

09-23-2005, 04:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I disagree that raising preflop only adds marginally to your profits but adds tremendously to your fluctuations. But even if it does, so what? IMO one should be playing at a little where there can play optimally.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because you're discounting the risk of ruin:

Let's say that your bankroll should be roughly eaqual to 4*variance/Expected Value.

In real life, of course, the bankroll is effectively fixed, so, if you can cut your variance in half for a 1 or 2% decrease in EV, you can take the same bankroll to a table with twice the stakes, and make twice as much money.

Therefore, variance-reducing play is valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rufus, good point but I don't think that EV to Variance is even in the ballpark that you suggest.

Different topic, but I think people are too highly focused on what bankroll they need. Most limit O8b players are not pros so the risk of ruin is not that important.

I like the advice I've seen before on this forum. Your bankroll should be 50BB and a job.

FeliciaLee

09-23-2005, 04:08 PM

I believe that conditions set the standard somewhat when it comes to pre-flop raising and lots of jamming early in LO8.

For instance, this year during the series, Rio spread some awesome, nine-handed LO8 games. There were always 10/20 and 20/40 games with a half kill.

The thing I noticed right off of the bat, was that lots of my opponents were very passive and always going low. They refused to play most high hands, but would play hands with wheel cards. Even two wheel cards with horrible sidecards would be played. Any ace with another wheel card would be played. They were so passive that many hands were shown down at the river, and I got to see their starting hands over and over again.

So I started playing lots of high hands. Most pots were played shorthanded, so I played my high hands more like HE. I kept splitting or scooping pots with high pairs. Since they refused to play any high pairs outside of aces, I was able to push around my high cards, and even started playing pairs as low as jacks even if my sidecards were bad.

In shorthanded games, I'm apt to raise a lot more often, and with a wide variety of hands. I'm going to use position and table image a lot, if my opponents are really paying attention and letting me affect their game.

On the other end of the spectrum, I played in some of the wilder games at Rio, with a lot of aggressive, middle-aged men who all wanted to show everyone else how good they were, how well they knew O8, how much they could bully. So I sat in the middle of a monkey game, letting them raise and reraise, talk about everyone else at the table, brag about how good they were and how much they know about Omaha versus all of the other players at the table. I just sat quietly, passively, overcalling like a calling station, but always showing down the nuts, one way or another. Slyly taking their chips and "letting them" convince me that they were the greatest O8 players alive.

Sure, some sessions didn't work out, at either type table, but overall, O8 was my most profitable game this year at the series. Most of the time I was able to double through with ease, and I played long hours just relaxing after tourneys or sats.

While in any game, under any circumstances, we typically raise with AA23 DS, frequent raising and jamming early in a hand can depend on a huge variety of circumstances.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chamonyx

09-23-2005, 04:20 PM

In a game where you have lots of players liking to see a flop, then I beleive it is ESSENTIAL to raise your good hands pre-flop, especially with position. If you don't tax the limpers with their highly speculative hands, then you are not going to get compensated for those times when they suck out on you.

If your game is loose pre-flop and tight post flop, then again you MUST raise pre-flop as it is the only significant way that you will be able to get any money into it before getting heads up and splitting.

If your game is loose passive post flop, then building the pot pre-flop increases the likelihood that the fish will keep coming along if you hit. (This assumes you are a good enough player to know when to bail).

If you are so worried about bankroll fluctuations, it might be better to drop down a level so that you can have a higher expectation but with a variance that you are comfortable with in absolute $ terms (OK $^2 for any smartasses out there).

If you are still in doubt, then ask yourself why you get so pissed off that the only hands you get on a Kill pot are 569Q etc, and you only get A23Kds on a normal round with one limper and the blinds.

The only argument I can see for dampening down the raising propensity on good hands is if the rest of the table are playing for social pleasure and your running over them is starting to get in the way of their buying more racks.

Buzz

09-23-2005, 04:22 PM

Pokerswami - First let's get the facts straight.

People do raise before the flop in limit Omaha-8 games.

Sometimes I play in games where pre-flop raising is the norm - where there's almost always a pre-flop raise. Often the raising in these pre-flop-aggressive games is mostly done by a very few players who may _think they know how to play the game of Omaha-8 well, but who don't really understand how to play Omaha-8 well at all - and when that's the case, I don't think it's in the best interests of a seasoned player to get out of the game just because fluctuations increase.

It is true that pre flop raises increase fluctuations and _when you make them too frequently yourself you do not gain you much profit. Indeed, I think when you make them yourself with a good hand, you may alert your opponents and end up profiting less than you would have profited without the pre-flop raise.

You're still going to show a profit with a good hand, whether you raise before the flop or not. But you may make more profit by not giving your hand away too early. Give the fish a chance to swallow the bait rather than jerking back on the pole the instant the fish touches it.

I think when Ray Zee wrote about only marginally increasing your profits he was thinking in terms of raising before the flop _yourself.

I believe it is true that your fluctuations greatly increase when there's much pre-flop raising by your opponents.

Whether or not I make a pre-flop raise myself has nothing whatsoever to do with a consideration of fluctuations. It's purely because I think I will end up with more profit at the end of the evening by playing that hand one way or another. And I believe many, if not most, of my solid playing limit Omaha-8 opponents think that way too.

If my opponents who know the game well are not raising much before the flop, I believe it's mainly because they think they'll have more chips at the end of the evening by not raising.

Yes, there are games with groups of players such that there's very little pre-flop raising. But for the most part I don't think that has much, if anything, to do with a dread of bankroll fluctuations.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

09-23-2005, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what the point of defining your hand to a field of players is by raising your AA23ss into 4 limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh my, this is ugly.

I'd take an easy stab at explaining how ugly, but it appears you are trying to convince us of this rather than seeking thoughts on it. I am content to let you keep limping your A23's after a bunch of limpers, if you so choose.

Chamonyx

09-23-2005, 04:30 PM

lol - reminds me of Raymer's quote to Jesse May during this year's series:

Everyone thinks they are the best HE player in the world, but everyone KNOWS they are the best at O8.

pipes

09-23-2005, 04:42 PM

Felicia, I often play in a juicy OE rotation.

The O game is very similar to what you described in your post. Its either a very loose passive full game or its shorthanded.

In the full game I'm raising good hands in middle to late position for value. For the shorthanded games, I'm doing more raising. Often to take control as you do.

My raising preflop in this particular game is one of my major competitive advantages IMO.

pipes

09-23-2005, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The only argument I can see for dampening down the raising propensity on good hands is if the rest of the table are playing for social pleasure and your running over them is starting to get in the way of their buying more racks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very good point. I play in a very social/juicy OE rotation. Many of them never raise preflop and don't believe in it. I still raise preflop, but not as often as I would normally because of this.

pipes

09-23-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerswami - First let's get the facts straight.

People do raise before the flop in limit Omaha-8 games.

Sometimes I play in games where pre-flop raising is the norm - where there's almost always a pre-flop raise. Often the raising in these pre-flop-aggressive games is mostly done by a very few players who may _think they know how to play the game of Omaha-8 well, but who don't really understand how to play Omaha-8 well at all - and when that's the case, I don't think it's in the best interests of a seasoned player to get out of the game just because fluctuations increase.

It is true that pre flop raises increase fluctuations and _when you make them too frequently yourself you do not gain you much profit. Indeed, I think when you make them yourself with a good hand, you may alert your opponents and end up profiting less than you would have profited without the pre-flop raise.

You're still going to show a profit with a good hand, whether you raise before the flop or not. But you may make more profit by not giving your hand away too early. Give the fish a chance to swallow the bait rather than jerking back on the pole the instant the fish touches it.

I think when Ray Zee wrote about only marginally increasing your profits he was thinking in terms of raising before the flop _yourself.

I believe it is true that your fluctuations greatly increase when there's much pre-flop raising by your opponents.

Whether or not I make a pre-flop raise myself has nothing whatsoever to do with a consideration of fluctuations. It's purely because I think I will end up with more profit at the end of the evening by playing that hand one way or another. And I believe many, if not most, of my solid playing limit Omaha-8 opponents think that way too.

If my opponents who know the game well are not raising much before the flop, I believe it's mainly because they think they'll have more chips at the end of the evening by not raising.

Yes, there are games with groups of players such that there's very little pre-flop raising. But for the most part I don't think that has much, if anything, to do with a dread of bankroll fluctuations.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

Buzz, the tone of your posts are very disparaging.

You say that players who disagree with you on preflop raising only 'think' they know how to play the game well. Or that most solid players agree with you.

Several posters on here that play this game for a living advocate preflop raising. Several others with WSOP bracelets like Bobby Baldwin and Steve Badger advocate preflop raising as well.

At the very least you should be more respectful of those who disagree.

Ribbo

09-23-2005, 05:32 PM

I would suggest if you're worried about "the fluctuations" then you really shouldn't be playing that limit in the first place. You clearly have some bankroll issues.

Buzz

09-23-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz, the tone of your posts are very disparaging.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pipes - That was not my intention. Not at all. I'm honestly sorry that you have misinterpreted and evidently misunderstood what I wrote.

[ QUOTE ]
You say that players who disagree with you on preflop raising only 'think' they know how to play the game well. Or that most solid players agree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wrote neither of those. The section where I wrote something about players who "think" they know the game well reads (without the italics):

"Sometimes I play in games where pre-flop raising is the norm - where there's almost always a pre-flop raise. Often the raising in these pre-flop-aggressive games is mostly done by a very few players who may think they know how to play the game of Omaha-8 well, but who don't really understand how to play Omaha-8 well at all - and when that's the case, I don't think it's in the best interests of a seasoned player to get out of the game just because fluctuations increase."

That is what I wrote and that is what I meant. No more. No less. How you can deny that what I wrote is true?

How can you extend it to imply I think players who disagree with me on preflop raising only 'think' they know how to play the game well. That's not what I wrote!

I don't know if most solid players agree with me or not. I neither wrote, nor implied that they do.

I do sometimes raise before the flop. I would say that most solid players do raise before the flop. But not all the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Several posters on here that play this game for a living advocate preflop raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whereever did you get the notion I don't raise on the first betting round? Wherever did you get the notion I don't advocate raising on the first betting round? Seems as though I've written over and over that my decision to raise or not before the flop is based more on the effect I think it will have on my opponents than the exact cards in my starting hand.

There it is in bold red! I don't see how I can make it clearer for you!

[ QUOTE ]
At the very least you should be more respectful of those who disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree, if you like, but please get what I write straight before you respond.

I guess I may have written something previously that offended you, Pipes, and you're not letting up in your criticism. It's never my intention to offend anyone. I actually get along very well with people, and always have.

But if I did write something in the past that offended you, I apologize.

In truth, I appreciate opposing points of view. Although I have confidence in my competence and understanding about Omaha-8 there is much I do not know about the game and how people play it.

My response to Pokerswami was one of disagreement. I suppose you could say that, in a way, disagreement is disrespect. But I wouldn't write, in this case, that I "disrespect" Pokerswami's point of view. Instead, I simply think Pokerswami is wrong in this instance.

The difference in my mind is that disagreement is more for a point of view while disrespect is more for an individual. Well... I suppose disrespect could also be for a point of view - but in my humble opinion it doesn't apply well in this instance.

Buzz

stud7champ

09-23-2005, 08:49 PM

Geez one joker starts a webpage and then we are referencing to it??

The 3rd reason for raising is to vary your play

The 4th reason is favourable position if you have A2 3 or 4 or 5 and you are in late position consider raising to build the pot.

The 5th reason is konw your opponents, if you have some opponents after you, raise a good hand to build the pot, create doubt, throw your opponents off and try to folp a favourable hand.

Its a fallacy that per flop raises are not that good. Hands such as A2X , AA2X etc.. have excellent prospects particularly if suited. On many count systems AA is already 2/3 of the points reuired to call, AA flsuh is enough to call and AA2 x flush is enough to raise from middle position.

stud7champ

09-23-2005, 09:08 PM

I agreee the guy writes crap, plaease read and apply what he teaches you. You will then be a fish and are welcome to apply your new skill at my table!!!
By the way he lists a bunch of "Fish" on his site. A couple of them are in fact sharks. Micaro on Party Poker is rumoured to be Mike Caro.
Goes to show you what free advice is worth exactly that nothing!

pokerswami

09-24-2005, 03:09 AM

Buzz, thanks for your response. I appreciate your comments and the effort you put forth to increase the knowledge base on these forums. I disagree with any thoughts expressed that you were being disrespectful.

I could have given a more thorough treatment in my post that you commented on, but that is about my limit of tolerance for typing and composition.

Please recall that I was expressing my view on the original poster's question as to why there is so little pre-flop raising in many limit Omaha 8/B games.

I was not giving my advice on the best strategies to use in limit O8.
As an example, note this qualifier in one sentence:
"If you want to play on an undersized bankroll and if you want to limit your fluctuations, then ...

I generally agree with your observations about how to properly play limit O8. In fact I probably agree with over 90% of all your O8/B posts, and added "generally" because I'm just not interested in trying to go through your post here word by word to look for something to disagree with. I also generally agree with Felicia Lee's comments and observations in this thread.

I just wanted to respond that I wasn't giving lessons on the most optimal limit O8 strategies. I was trying to answer the original poster's question by explaining why I believe many Omaha 8/B games have little pre-flop raising.

Regards, pokerswami

umdpoker

09-24-2005, 06:58 AM

great thread. i just started playing omaha8 2 days ago, and am already hooked. my main concern, coming from a holdem background, was that i didn't understand when to raise, or 3-bet preflop. for the most part, i am only raising in lp after a bunch of limpers with good 2 way hands. it is nice to hear that it probably isn't too important, as long as i play well postflop and stay tight preflop.

i have noticed that calling 2 cold is much more common in omaha8 than holdem. actually, it seems that calling 2 cold is very common on all streets in omaha. in holdem, calling 2 cold a lot will lead to your downfall. i have a feeling that this may not be as true in omaha? am i correct? what hands should i be willing to call 2 cold with preflop? i really feel that i am smart enough to feel my way through postflop play, but preflop seems more complicated. also, if anybody can recommend some good players' posts to read, i would greatly appreciate it. thanks.

stud7champ

09-24-2005, 11:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW My understanding of why it is not a good strategy to raise pre-flop in a high-low game like omaha is that hands run much closer in value than in hold'em. You simply never have as significant an advantage as AA does in hold'em. The flop changes everything by making the best starting hands into utter crap when the board comes high with a rainbow. Your hands value greatly depends on the flop, much more so than in hold'em. In hold'em an unimporved AA wins in Omaha an unimproved AA23ss typically does not.

k_squared

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Geez why dont you read any O8 book, where are you getting your info from?
AA23 can win high unimproved, if you get a bad flop such as 2 or 3 high cards (>8) assuming you are not drawing to the flush and are facing a straight draw or 2 pair then whats the difference to that than facing a 2 card flush/straight draw on the flop in HE and multiple opponents. Against multiple opponents in HE AA is way over rated.
Just goes to show not only are you ignorent of Omaha you cant play HE either

Ribbo

09-24-2005, 06:25 PM

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great thread. i just started playing omaha8 2 days ago, and am already hooked. my main concern, coming from a holdem background, was that i didn't understand when to raise, or 3-bet preflop. for the most part, i am only raising in lp after a bunch of limpers with good 2 way hands. it is nice to hear that it probably isn't too important, as long as i play well postflop and stay tight preflop.

i have noticed that calling 2 cold is much more common in omaha8 than holdem. actually, it seems that calling 2 cold is very common on all streets in omaha. in holdem, calling 2 cold a lot will lead to your downfall. i have a feeling that this may not be as true in omaha? am i correct? what hands should i be willing to call 2 cold with preflop? i really feel that i am smart enough to feel my way through postflop play, but preflop seems more complicated. also, if anybody can recommend some good players' posts to read, i would greatly appreciate it. thanks.

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That will take a long time to grasp. Learning Omaha is not a sprint race, but a marathon. Nobody ever knows exactly when to raise for one factor only. They never know who is going high and who is going low. I think of the times I have had A2 in a 4 way pot and all the other 3 players are going high with me on low.