Cold call/smoothbet

[jason_t]

UTG is 2+2er colgin and Button is Harv72b.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>

[TheHammer24]

That's hot

[davet]

Is this a classic top pair - vs - straight draw? Or rather, is this how you read this hand?

[newhizzle]

was this a serious game or was harv "cold-calling for value" here

cuz what is he coldcalling with in this spot

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
was this a serious game

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[cold_cash]

I would likely just call down from the turn raise since I think we'll see the same hand or a better one a lot of the time.

What hands might Harv have here? I'm leaning toward AQ, 99 or QKs, none of which I think will be folding, but some might be raising.*

I'd hate to get raised and fold and be shown QK, and I'd hate to call down a raise and see 99 or AQ. Also, if he has a hand like 88 I don't want him to get off the hook.

*This range could be completely off.

[newhizzle]

what is he cold-calling with here, K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif, or maybe 99 or QJs?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
what is he cold-calling with here, K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif, or maybe 99 or QJs?

[/ QUOTE ]

He would 3-bet 99.

[davet]

I would think that harv would call most of the hands he would want to raise here. I would discount AKs, AQs, KQs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT becaue he would have re- raised these PF.

So that leave JTs, JTo, 99, A9s

I would be leary of KQo, AQo. I think that he would likely re- raise here as well.

PS. I still think Harv is on a straight draw, but i wouldn't discount a set.

[Luv2DriveTT]

The range of hands that Harv could hold that you beat is rather small (assuming he is playing normally). I can't imagine anything but 99, TT, or AJ that he might limp in with that you beat unless he was setting a trap (unlikely), or KQ which you would tie. I would assume he would raise with JJ on the button here. I don't expect him to limp in with a hand such as QJs, QTs, KJs, or pocket pairs below 99. With all of the above hands (with the exception of KQ of course) I doubt he would play the flop and turn the way he did.

Therefore... I don't like the raise. Hero is either behind, or splitting the pot far too often. On the bright side this is the best thing about playing another respected 2+2'er, their range of hands are generally easy to determine.

Question - would he 3-bet AQs in this game? I think he might.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[newhizzle]

i think you might be splitting the pot here, KQs is likely, i dont think hed cold call and UTG 2+2er raise with QJs, and he might 3-bet AQs, 66 is a remote possibility

edit: maybe JTs, but i think hed fold that too

[cold_cash]

I think this has to be AQ(s) or QKs, (since we know he's 3-betting 99 for sure).

Any other facedard combos seem like a fold, and if he's playing a small pair he's raising to get the nits out.

(It could also be the Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif from the looks of it, but I'm still saying he folds that.)

[newhizzle]

so if i have this right, your play is -EV because you are adding to the rake, which i dont think is capped yet

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
so if i have this right, your play is -EV because you are adding to the rake, which i dont think is capped yet

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the rake has much to do with it.

[hobbsmann]

I was SB in this hand and I swore Jason had a set and Harv had a decent Q. BTW, the game was serious, but Harv seemed to be playing slightly looser than what I assume his average game is so his cc hand range needs to be opened up.

[Bodhi]

In a seven handed game, don't we need expand our cold-calling list a bit? That makes a hand like QJs more likely, or even 66 (which is unlikely but possible).

[newhizzle]

in a 7 handed game isnt his cold-calling range becoming his 3-betting range?

[Bodhi]

[ QUOTE ]
his cc hand range needs to be opened up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, just what I thinking. This is a 7-handed game after all. A set of sixes is something we've overlooked.

[Bodhi]

apparently not.

[davet]

Yes, I think so.

I am pretty sure that Harv plays more aggressively PF than I do, and I would have to re- raise the hands I said I would.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
In a seven handed game, don't we need expand our cold-calling list a bit? That makes a hand like QJs more likely, or even 66 (which is unlikely but possible).

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt he ever cold calls 66 there, but I dunno.

Also, there are only two combos of QJs out there, and he would only play one of them this way, IMO. So even if you count that in I still think calling down is the way to go based on the available combos of what we think he might have.

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so if i have this right, your play is -EV because you are adding to the rake, which i dont think is capped yet

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the rake has much to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

if were splitting the pot it does

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so if i have this right, your play is -EV because you are adding to the rake, which i dont think is capped yet

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the rake has much to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]



if were splitting the pot it does

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize that, but if you're going to play the hand differently it's not going to be because of the rake.

That's what I meant.

[jgorham]

I like this 3bet as I am pretty sure button has exactly KQ, or slowplayed QQ-AA. A bluff cap is a pretty strong move, and I wouldn't expect 2+2ers to do it to me in this spot, so I would fold to a 4bet (although this is something you obviously can't do often). It is just gonna be hard for KQ to take you to a showdown with that action on this board.

[Klepton]

this is very very hot

i would have just check 3-bet

why aren't you at 30-60 yet?

[private joker]

I think you both have the same hand. Harv's is soooted. You should have folded preflop, and if Harv is smart he will call you down for the chop chop.

But he wasn't very smart to begin with, cold-calling KQ without anyone else in the pot...

[Carmine]

The most likely hand for Harv is AQ. You have to believe he is cabable of mucking TPTK to a BB's wide set range here(a TAG BB does not have two pair on this brd). So how confident are you that he is cabable of that or even the less likely KQs. I assume you are folding to a cap. What about the river if he just calls the turn? If Harv calls this turn he is calling the river. Spending 3-bets, minimum, on a very, very player dependant move. That read has got to be concrete or this line sucks IMO.

[Carmine]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you both have the same hand. Harv's is soooted. You should have folded preflop, and if Harv is smart he will call you down for the chop chop.

But he wasn't very smart to begin with, cold-calling KQ without anyone else in the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

I also cc on button with KQs (fold KQo) and I think calling in the BB with KQo considering the discount is okay even HU. Is this bad?

[bakku]

wtf is a smoothbet?

i dont like this at all

[Chris Daddy Cool]

hate it.

I think, the action is scary, but you can impossibly fold KQ. So, your possibilities are limited to calling or raising.

This is counterproductive. What is a smoothbet?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
hate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[jason_t]

Would one of bakku, CDC or sfer please elaborate on why they don't like this?

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
Would one of bakku, CDC or sfer please elaborate on why they don't like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

he's not folding a better hand, he's folding worse hands, you throw up if you get capped and it's very unlikely he's on a draw.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would one of bakku, CDC or sfer please elaborate on why they don't like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

he's not folding a better hand, he's folding worse hands, you throw up if you get capped and it's very unlikely he's on a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

My exact thoughts.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would one of bakku, CDC or sfer please elaborate on why they don't like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

he's not folding a better hand, he's folding worse hands, you throw up if you get capped and it's very unlikely he's on a draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think after the turn pop, I should check/call the river?

[rmarotti]

Just read this. Bakku and sfer are right. Are you relying on your nit-image here? You shouldn't.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Would one of bakku, CDC or sfer please elaborate on why they don't like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate it too, I feel that too often, once he raises the turn, his hand is the same as or better than yours and he's not folding it. It looks like it's only good if he has something like AsJs, or QsJs (the latter with which he'd bet the river anyway when non-flushed but would (should) fold to a river bet after you 3-bet him on the turn), and why would he raise those anyway on the turn when a 3-bet looks pretty likely?

Hopefully this answer is worth something despite the paleness of my complexion.

EDIT: Wow I forgot how busy SS gets and that I should refresh after reading the thread to see if anyone answered already.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Just read this. Bakku and sfer are right. Are you relying on your nit-image here? You shouldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm not relying on my image; I don't even have a stupid [censored] nit image.

I think I have the best hand a lot.

Harv72b was playing aggressive preflop and would likely 3-bet 99/AQ here. Given the shorthandedness, he's likely to 3-bet with 66 too. That leaves KQ/QJs/QTs.

[B Dids]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you both have the same hand. Harv's is soooted. You should have folded preflop, and if Harv is smart he will call you down for the chop chop.

But he wasn't very smart to begin with, cold-calling KQ without anyone else in the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only person who folds this preflop like never?

I don't hate it, but it's not a line I'd use often, as your hand just doesn't look that awesome in that spot.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you both have the same hand. Harv's is soooted. You should have folded preflop, and if Harv is smart he will call you down for the chop chop.

But he wasn't very smart to begin with, cold-calling KQ without anyone else in the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only person who folds this preflop like never?

I don't hate it, but it's not a line I'd use often, as your hand just doesn't look that awesome in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely fold this here.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person who folds this preflop like never?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends.

[Rico Suave]

Jason:

[ QUOTE ]
Harv72b was playing aggressive preflop and would likely 3-bet 99/AQ here. Given the shorthandedness, he's likely to 3-bet with 66 too. That leaves KQ/QJs/QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I admit that I don't know how Harv plays, but I would assume he is going to be 3-betting almost anything he is going to play in this spot. So, to be honest, his button cold call with only the EP pfr is a bit odd. I would guess that AA or KK is more likely than KQ,QJs, QTs.

--Rico

[B Dids]

If you embrace my attitude which is "even if I'm dominated in this spot, I fully believe I will suck out" you never have to fold, it's awesome.

Live the dream.

And:

[08:06] * jason_t has joined #sstakes
[08:06] &lt;BDids&gt; JASON
[08:06] * BDids sets mode: +o jason_t
[08:06] &lt;jason_t&gt; ty
[08:06] &lt;BDids&gt; did you win or lose the KQ hand
&lt;results snipped&gt;
[08:06] * jason_t changes topic to 'I will murder the next [censored] person that calls me a nit.'

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
That leaves KQ/QJs/QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising these, esp QJs and QTs seems like it would be pretty retarded unless he's folding to a 3-bet (which means he doesn't have spades, Qh is on board, you have Qd so he's going to have to have specifically KcQc, QcJc or QcTc).

[thejameser]

this may be moronic, but i have not seen any mention of a possible flop 3bet by hero. i guess his plan was to see a blank turn and donk bet? why not try a c/r there if you think your hand is good?

[flair1239]

I am pretty unimaginative, but I am betting out in this situation on the flop much of the time.

I don't particularly care, if that means, causing Harv to fold a hand, to a UTG raise that is drawing slim to ours. Because IMO at 6SB on th flop this pot is near the size at which I just want to win it.

Also in my experience, these type of hands play much easier when you get them HU. If Harv were a complete donkey, I maybe would not mind leaving him in the hand (as he probably would not go away anyways). So I am willing to sacrafice a bit of value. Although really I think most of the time when you are ahead here on the flop, you will probably make just as much betting out as the times you try to get cute.

I am having a little trouble with Harvs PF CC. THis is probably because in this particular situation,most hands I play I am going to three-bet. So this is just an inkling, but I think on the turn, you have to be willing to revise your hand range to include big pairs. Also I think there are only a couple of hands where Harv is raising you for a free showdown and you have those crushed anyway. Also unless you two have had something going previously at this table, I can't see him raising QJ or QT here (on the turn). I also really doubt that he is on a draw of any sort.

[SippinSoma]

[ QUOTE ]
If you embrace my attitude which is "even if I'm dominated in this spot, I fully believe I will suck out" you never have to fold, it's awesome.

Live the dream.

And:

[08:06] * jason_t has joined #sstakes
[08:06] &lt;BDids&gt; JASON
[08:06] * BDids sets mode: +o jason_t
[08:06] &lt;jason_t&gt; ty
[08:06] &lt;BDids&gt; did you win or lose the KQ hand
&lt;results snipped&gt;
[08:06] * jason_t changes topic to 'I will murder the next [censored] person that calls me a nit.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahaha.

[B Dids]

To state what we talked about elsewhere, and think about this a little more. This hand is tricky because we're not sure if Harv is being a donk or not. The fact that we assume he knows what he's doing makes his cold calling range hard to place. Basically he knows he's got a thinking 2+2er behind him, and he's cold calling a 2+2ers UTG raise, at face value that's either bad or he's got a monster, but that's bad too because we'll be looking out for it.

So my final conclusion is that since a cold call with any hand in that spot seems so lame, I'm going to assume he's goofing around more often than not, and as such I think jason's got a better than avg chance to be ahead with his line.

[shant]

It's possible Harv read my awesome Float post and is playing JTs that way in tribute to me.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
It's possible Harv read my awesome Float post and is playing JTs that way in tribute to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
trib·ute
n.

Evidence attesting to some praiseworthy quality or characteristic: Winning the scholarship was a tribute to her hard work.

[/ QUOTE ]

[gaming_mouse]

This just comes down to counting hands.

Assuming harv will semi-bluff raise here with a flush draw (a reasonable assumption), all we need to do is count the number of those hands and compare to the number of hands that jason is behind.

I won't do this, but I think the correctness of jason's play depends heavily on his read that harv would have 3 bet AQ and 99 PF here.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming harv will semi-bluff raise here with a flush draw (a reasonable assumption)

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising a flush draw here would be terrible.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming harv will semi-bluff raise here with a flush draw (a reasonable assumption)

[/ QUOTE ]

Jason cold-called two on the flop and bet the turn. I don't think this is a reasonable assumption.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]

So my final conclusion is that since a cold call with any hand in that spot seems so lame, I'm going to assume he's goofing around more often than not, and as such I think jason's got a better than avg chance to be ahead with his line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe knowing the results like you do puts a different spin on things.

But from the action thus far, I am more inclined to think that if Harv was screwing around, it was with a big hand, or he flopped big.

He has seen Jason call 2-cold on the flop, then lead out.

I don't really think he is messing around.

The of the only scenarios I have been able to think uo, where I can see him doing this with a worse hand, is if he thinks Jason picked up a big draw on the turn. Then maybe he is doing a freeshowdown type of thing. But I think with the action thus far, sticking with the read of a lesser queen or PP, is probably pretty close to a form of super reading.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming harv will semi-bluff raise here with a flush draw (a reasonable assumption)

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising a flush draw here would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm.... i think terrible is an exaggeration, but after thinking about it some more I agree that it is bad.

And in that case -- if we remove flush draws from harv's possible range -- I find it hard to believe that jason's 3bet is correct.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming harv will semi-bluff raise here with a flush draw (a reasonable assumption)

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising a flush draw here would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm.... i think terrible is an exaggeration, but after thinking about it some more I agree that it is bad.

And in that case -- if we remove flush draws from harv's possible range -- I find it hard to believe that jason's 3bet is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, it's terrible. unless of course he has a hand like AsQs

[hobbsmann]

Most of you guys aren't taking into account that Harv is just as capable of 'cold calling for value' in a 3/6 2+2 game as he is in the .5/1 counterpart, albiet with slightly more rigid standards.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

actually, it's terrible. unless of course he has a hand like AsQs

[/ QUOTE ]

please explain. that 2 didn't change anything, and i think jason would have pumped the flop with a monster. so the chance of getting 3bet seems pretty low.

is it terrible simply because you have so little fold equity?

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

actually, it's terrible. unless of course he has a hand like AsQs

[/ QUOTE ]

please explain. that 2 didn't change anything, and i think jason would have pumped the flop with a monster. so the chance of getting 3bet seems pretty low.

is it terrible simply because you have so little fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

you're not getting jason to fold anything you want him to fold. you still need to hit to win and getting a free showdown with a flush draw is useless.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]


you're not getting jason to fold anything you want him to fold. you still need to hit to win and getting a free showdown with a flush draw is useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, fair enough. overuse of "terrible" is just one of pet peeves. people often use it just to be dramatic. eg, how big of a mistake do you think this is? more than 1 BB? i'd estimate it around .7 or .8 BB at most. so what qualifies as terrible? i just think the word should be reserved for mistakes that cost you the pot, but whatever -- i concede that the play is bad.

[sfer]

Put yourself in Harv's shoes and put Jason on a hand. Harv's turn action is pretty effing scary now, no?

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
Put yourself in Harv's shoes and put Jason on a hand. Harv's turn action is pretty effing scary now, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Nobody is really taking into account the fact that Harv is raising after having Jason call two cold on the flop, then lead into two players on a (just about) blank turn. I really can't see Harv just indiscrimiantly putting jason on a draw. Also Jason has kind of overrepresented his hand.

I don't know how this turned out, but I don't think there is much longterm value in three-betting the turn.

[B Dids]

Since I've talked to Jason about this- knowing what I know jason thinks of Harv, what if you change his read to "thinking but slightly loose, very aggro player" how does that change your thought process.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Since I've talked to Jason about this- knowing what I know jason thinks of Harv, what if you change his read to "thinking but slightly loose, very aggro player" how does that change your thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

More important is what Harv thinks of Jason.

[B Dids]

Obviously he thinks he's a nit

/me ducks.

Basically you're saying "jason just did something that's really scary and Harv seems undetered by this". My question is, if we think Harv's super aggro- does that change how we perceive his undeterence?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously he thinks he's a nit

/me ducks.

Basically you're saying "jason just did something that's really scary and Harv seems undetered by this". My question is, if we think Harv's super aggro- does that change how we perceive his undeterence?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bluff or monster. Therefore, 3-bet = whoops.

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so if i have this right, your play is -EV because you are adding to the rake, which i dont think is capped yet

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think the rake has much to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]



if were splitting the pot it does

[/ QUOTE ]

I realize that, but if you're going to play the hand differently it's not going to be because of the rake.

That's what I meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

this was just a short way of saying that the most likely hand that harv has here is KQs, AQ and QJ have the same mathematical probility although AQ is a bit more likely, there are the distant chances of 66 ot JTs, and i think that the mitigating and aggrivating factors pretty much cancel eachother out and the small amount of rake increase in the event of a split pretty much makes up for any minimal FE that we have

in other words, i call down

[Entity]

I think 3-betting this is a lot worse than limping with JTs behind one limper in a 4-handed game.

Rob

[jason_t]

I'm pretty sure that I have the best hand here a lot against this opponent, which is why I like my line up until the 3-bet. I think there's a better line to extract more from Harv72b. What do you think?

[jason_t]

Anyone?

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure that I have the best hand here a lot against this opponent, which is why I like my line up until the 3-bet. I think there's a better line to extract more from Harv72b. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I know what Harv had this is kind of biased, but calling his turn raise and donking the river is the most profitable line.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure that I have the best hand here a lot against this opponent, which is why I like my line up until the 3-bet. I think there's a better line to extract more from Harv72b. What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I know what Harv had this is kind of biased, but calling his turn raise and donking the river is the most profitable line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think calling the turn raise and checking the river may be more profitable, unless Harv is playing really badly.

[davet]

I still think that Harv is trying to draw to some sort of monster and is trying to value raise.

I would have to re- raise here to extract bets, then fire away on the river.

But to keep it tricky, I would also advocate calling, then c/r the river, since Harv is not going to slow down at all here.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]


I think calling the turn raise and checking the river may be more profitable, unless Harv is playing really badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

spicy.