How would you play bottom two pair?

Fived handed play. Blinds at 10-20.
UTG (over 500) and button (over 300) limp. SB folds. hero (96 chips left after posting) checks with 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
flop: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif
Does hero push or check raise all in?

UTG and Button are passive preflop, but capable of making small moves at pots post flop. I knew I was getting all my money in with the hand regardless of what the turn came. Can I check the flop and hope someone bets, or am I trying to win what is already there?

[Karak567]

You have 96 chips left? uhh push right away

[splashpot]

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You have 96 chips left? uhh push right away

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I disagree. With 2 pair, you want to double or triple up, not win the 60 chips in the pot. I say do whatever it takes to get your opponents to put their money in.

[Karak567]

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You have 96 chips left? uhh push right away

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I disagree. With 2 pair, you want to double or triple up, not win the 60 chips in the pot. I say do whatever it takes to get your opponents to put their money in.

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And give them free cards on such a coordinated board?

No thanks. You are going to get called 80 % of the time here, you will look like a desperate small stack shoving his chips in.

[splashpot]

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You have 96 chips left? uhh push right away

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I disagree. With 2 pair, you want to double or triple up, not win the 60 chips in the pot. I say do whatever it takes to get your opponents to put their money in.

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And give them free cards on such a coordinated board?

No thanks. You are going to get called 80 % of the time here, you will look like a desperate small stack shoving his chips in.

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Then what difference does it make? Why does giving free cards matter if you're planning on putting all your chips in no matter what the turn is? The only possible reason for pushing on the flop is to knock the other players out. All I'm saying is that by knocking them out, you waste 2 pair and still are extremely short stacked.

Edit: PS - You also give someone a chance with Ax to catch an ace or something and call you down.

[Pete H]

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You have 96 chips left? uhh push right away

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I disagree. With 2 pair, you want to double or triple up, not win the 60 chips in the pot. I say do whatever it takes to get your opponents to put their money in.

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And give them free cards on such a coordinated board?

No thanks. You are going to get called 80 % of the time here, you will look like a desperate small stack shoving his chips in.

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I agree with splashpot.

With 96 chips I want to win 250 chips with bigger risk.

By pushing you'll probably lose at least one player.

NP: Kreator - Betrayer

[Freudian]

I think a flop checkraise is fine. Even if one of them minbets I would push all in.

[willmay3]

Dear All:

I disagree with the check-raise option in general for NL and in particular for this hand in this particular situation.

In a SNG the highest value is making the money:

1. With 96 chips, adding 60 more with the blinds at 10/20 is a signifigant victory. This allows you to a) post blinds for at least 1 more round without having to be desperate and b) Accumulate chips to double through and really hurt someone/help yourself at the appropriate time.

2. With such a coordinated flop it is true that you are likely to get called by the random Q or straight draw or flush draw. But, what you really don't want is TWO callers. This is the benefit of the all in. You are unlikely to get two callers. So, you have a fine chance to win the pot right there or double through, while signifigantly lowering your chances of going broke.

3. While it is true that the check raise MAY provide you the best chance to win the tournament, offering you the chance to triple through, it also offers you best chance to go broke. And, SNG's are all about making the money AND then going for first place. There is no big hoorah or bracelet for winning a $100 SNG.

4. Now, having said all of this, if you have SIGNIFIGANTLY less chips than everybody else, I mean like 4 to 1 behind everybody, then the check-raise might be the best because you need to triple up here.

Just some thoughts.

Will

[ezmogee]

This is tough, but of course I've been in many situations like this. I think your answer is rooted in what gives you the best chance of winning. I think it's a huge check/raise rather than a push.

As someone else noted, picking up 60 chips lets you live another 10 hands. Getting them both all in and turning a ten means that you might even find yourself in contention.

It blows to give people a free card or lose a hand you could've won, but when you flop this monster you should be looking to double up or triple up. Plus, who knows...even if they turn flush, you still have redraws.

Basically I check/raise flop or tap turn. Even if turn is ace of hearts, you still gotta get it allin....these are the problems of being a short stack.

[Pete H]

I just read the OP again and noticed that there isn't enough information to make a decision.

At first I (didn't read OP carefully and) thought this is a 1st or 2nd level of a 8000-1500 chip SNG where you'd be desperate with 150 chips and you'd need to triple up to have decent shot at top 3.

As it's 5 handed and 3 players have total of 900 chips I suspect there isn't that much chips in play (could be though).

Also the next blind level and when will the blinds rise are needed. And of course how many places pay.

If the average stack size is around 300, first 3 pay and blinds are at this level at least the next orbit then I'm probably open pushing.

Check-raise might still be good option, but I'd need to have a good read that there'll be a bet after my check.

NP: Dismember - Patrol 17

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I just read the OP again and noticed that there isn't enough information to make a decision.

At first I (didn't read OP carefully and) thought this is a 1st or 2nd level of a 8000-1500 chip SNG where you'd be desperate with 150 chips and you'd need to triple up to have decent shot at top 3.

As it's 5 handed and 3 players have total of 900 chips I suspect there isn't that much chips in play (could be though).


NP: Dismember - Patrol 17

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This was actually a home game one table tournament. Ten players started with 200 in chips. Top three got paid. Sorry for the confusion.

[FlyWf]

This is pretty bad advice. You badly want both players to call, the only question is what line will convince both of them to put chips in.

[durron597]

With two opponents, my default is to check-raise allin, one of them will likely bet the flop.

If my opponents are on the tight/passive side, I will just lead 1/3 my stack with the intention of getting it allin no matter what. Most passive opponents will just think you are being passive too and won't realize the small bet means massive strength.

[splashpot]

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With 96 chips, adding 60 more with the blinds at 10/20 is a signifigant victory. This allows you to a) post blinds for at least 1 more round without having to be desperate

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It depends on when the blinds are going up again. Adding 60 chips is not a significant victory. You're still going to have to double up at some point. Do you really think you'll come across a better hand than 2 pair before the blinds cripple you?

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b) Accumulate chips to double through and really hurt someone/help yourself at the appropriate time.

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I don't even know what your point is. That more chips is better than fewer? Brilliant. You're admiting that you will have to double through again. Better to double through with more chips than fewer.

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2. With such a coordinated flop it is true that you are likely to get called by the random Q or straight draw or flush draw. But, what you really don't want is TWO callers. This is the benefit of the all in. You are unlikely to get two callers. So, you have a fine chance to win the pot right there or double through, while signifigantly lowering your chances of going broke.

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What sort of hands are you trying to chase out? Overcards? Top pair? I don't know about you, but I'd be strongly in favor of those hands calling. Obviously it's better to triple up than double up. Flush draws, sets, or better are going to call no matter what you do.

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3. While it is true that the check raise MAY provide you the best chance to win the tournament, offering you the chance to triple through, it also offers you best chance to go broke. And, SNG's are all about making the money AND then going for first place. There is no big hoorah or bracelet for winning a $100 SNG.

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Yes, your ultimate goal is to make the money and eventually win. To maximize your chances you badly need to double up or triple up. YES, YOU WILL NEED TO GET LUCKY. Whether it be this hand or in the next couple hands. You could bust, but it's a small price to pay when you consider the number of times worse hands will double or triple you up in this particular situation.

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4. Now, having said all of this, if you have SIGNIFIGANTLY less chips than everybody else, I mean like 4 to 1 behind everybody, then the check-raise might be the best because you need to triple up here.

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I don't even know if you read the original post. Are you saying that the hero is not significantly short stacked??

What it ultimately comes down to is what you want your opponents to do. If you want them to fold, your best chance of making that happen is to push right away. It probably won't happen, but that's your only hope. If you want them to call, checking is the best chance you have. 2 pair is too good of a hand to waste. The times your opponents will double you up with worse hands greatly outweigh the times when you bust.