BET THE FLOP?

[34TheTruth34]

Foxwoods 2/4. Game is---believe it or not---loose passive. A bunch of people playing any two before the flop and lots of chasing after the flop. Here's the scenario I was in. I had A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif in the SB. 5 limpers and I raise. Button 3-bets. This doesn't necessarily mean a big pair. He is a weak player who raises and reraises before the flop with any two face cards, recently capping the betting on a previous hand with QJo. He then gets extremely passive if he doesn't hit the flop. Everyone calls. I call. 6 players for 3 bets each.

Flop 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Being in the SB, you are first to act. Considering the current game conditions and quality of opponents:

1. How often, in terms of percentages, do you bet the flop?
2. Why? (i.e., what factors do you consider?)

Thanks in advance...

[Bob T.]

100 % of the time I would bet the flop. With this many players in, you are getting value from your flush draw, and maybe your overcards might be good also. If it gets raised, and it looks like it will be four to the turn, I reraise, and cap it.

[nathanielt]

With 6 seeing the flop, I would go ahead and bet. The button will probably raise when it gets to him if he has an overpair, but everyone having called your bet will most likey call another and build the pot for when my flush hits. Depending on the player, your Ace or Queen could be good, although I wouldn't factor that in.

[Joe Tall]

I'd bet it every time, ...hopefully you bet, all called, button raised, you caught a heart on the turn that made someone's straight...it was capped and you were paid off well! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[HUSKER'66]

I think that your going to find alot of people saying," bet it!". With a nut flush draw and two overcards you have plenty of outs. You also have plenty of "calling stations" in the hand so your getting value for your bet. You asked, "how often % wise do you bet the flop?" I think that a lot of posters will agree with the standard "it depends". Given the brief history that you gave of the players/table I would bet the flop in the same situation 80/90 % of the time.....if not that then a check raise! /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif The factors involved? How many will stay in on a draw, do you want to build the pot early and maybe lose a player or two (though it doesn't sound like you will on this table) or wait to see if you do indeed hit your flush draw on the turn or river. With a four flush on the flop your about a 3/1 (?) to make it by the river, you can be aggressive with this hand!!!!Post the results and let us know how it turned out...the curiosity is killing me! /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

[bernie]

if the raise may come from your left, id c/r. a free card isnt going to hurt you if it checks through.

otherwise, id bet out and cap this flop

edited: i reread the post and noticed the button was the one who 3 bet. i thought it was the BB. in this case, id bet out. a case could be made for capping preflop also. although that move is scary to do for most players and is not 'routine'. it can be a nice change in preflop play.

b

[Ector]

Depending on how passive he really is i would either bet or checkraise... most people will bet any hand on the button if it is checked to them here. When he bets you can raise and force other overcards out and take it with the A high. If the others come along you have the odds to hit the flush. If i dont think he will bet i bet it myself... if he raises i reraise.

[34TheTruth34]

[Louie Landale]

Before Correction: the likely bettor is the button and players will, oddly tend to check to him. But he won't bet unless he really has something (which he clearly doesn't since he called the first bet and THEN raised). So you should 100% bet out in this juicy spot.

After correction (BB 3-bet). Now THIS player is MUCH more likely to have something and is going to bet, so you should routinely check-raise. The exception would be if you believed he'll 3-bet with lots of hands worse than AQs AND will raise again on the flop, in which case you should bet into him HOPING he raises and drives out the paranoid pairs that actually have the best hand. Since that's not a common situation, rarely bet into him.

- Louie

[34TheTruth34]

Thanks to everyone who responded and sorry for messing up my post /forums/images/icons/frown.gif . If it was the button who 3-bet, then I think I would bet the flop 100% of the time, hoping that he raises trapping as many people as possible. However, as I posted in my correction, it was the BB who 3-bet.

Given my description of the BB, it is pretty unlikely that the flop has helped him. This is because he raises and reraises BTF with any two face cards and isn't likely to have a big pair. Even though I felt he would probably check this flop, I still checked. I didn't bet out because I didn't want to be raised by a hand like A6, 77, or 88 and shut out the rest of the field. In big loose-passive pots like this, I don't like hitting an ace on the turn that much. Too often, it gives someone their two pair. I felt that a queen on the turn would probably give me the best hand.

The play I made was to check. If the bet came from someone close to my left, I would check-raise when it got back to me trapping everyone in between. If it came from my right, I figured I would just call here and try to check-raise the turn if my flush came.

It got checked to a player in late position who bet, everyone but one person called. 5 players.

Turn K /forums/images/icons/club.gif. I check, BB bets out, everyone calls.

River 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif I check, BB bets out and gets 2 callers, I fold. He splits with another player who also had KQ. There was another heart draw out there in addition to an A6, nullifying hitting an ace for me (which is what usually happens in games like this). As I had suspected, my hand would have been good if a queen came.

Anyway, I wanted to post this hand to show how most people feel about playing the nut flush draw. Almost everyone thought I should bet out 100% of the time. But I like the way I played the hand becuase I didn't have nearly as many outs as it looked like on the flop. And since I have to show down the best hand to win in games like this, the last thing I want is to bet out, get raised, and have somebody with no chance to win the pot (like a gutshot straight for example) to fold. I wanted to make the pot as big as possible on the flop, and I didn't think that would happen by betting out.

Thanks for reading...

[Bob T.]

Anyway, I wanted to post this hand to show how most people feel about playing the nut flush draw

There are seven people in for 3 bets. Nobody is going anywhere on the flop for 1 bet. Most are going to see the turn if it costs them two bets. You are going to make the flush 1 out of 3 times by the river. Any more than two callers on the flop gives you an overlay on the money going in on this street. If another player shows you their flush draw, you will still make the flush one out of 4 times by the river. In that case, you need more than three callers to get an overlay. I don't think that there is any question that there will be enough callers on the flop for you to have a value bet here. If you bet, and in the unlikely event that nearly everyone folds, that is also good, because now your A and Q are more likely to be outs. If you regularly don't put in a lot of money on this flop with a huge field you are leaving a lot of value on the table.

A second consideration, is that the pot is fairly big preflop. You really want to win this pot. If for instance, you could get the A6 to fold, you bought yourself a couple more outs. Why not play aggressively here and see if something good happens.