Broke players are because of poker or external factors

[rimanosov]

I've been playing for seven months online, and I'm still learning (that's good to recognize)
I have a question regarding the poker broked.

When successful poker players go broke, it usually has to do with his poker game, for example long bad streak, bad luck. Or factors different from poker, expending too much...

What I want to know is. When poker players go broke is because of poker (luck always beat skill in the long run), or because external factors (skill always beat luck in the long run, but some successful player do stupid things that kill the success)?

[Ray Of Light]

I think it is a combination of both.

For example, a player who is going through a bad streak who then decides to jump up a couple of levels to win it back. Or a player who is going through a bad streak and is finding themselves going through the middle of a divorce so their emotions are all over the place.

Its hard to seperate real life from the tables, (or vice versa), particularly during a bad streak at the tables.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi rimanosov:

The only reason that the vast majority of players who do lose, lose, is because they play poorly. All their other habits do is either slow down or accelerate the process a little.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason that the vast majority of players who do lose, lose, is because they play poorly. All their other habits do is either slow down or accelerate the process a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

While its certainly true, that most players lose, because they are poor players.

Wouldn't you agree that the primary reason "successful" players lose their bankroll, is poor bankroll management?

[Peter666]

Right. If a player makes anything above 0 BB per 100 hands, how is it possible for them to bust out if they have an adequate bankroll? For example, if I had a 600 BB bankroll and played slightly better than 0 BB per 100 hands, I would think it practically impossible to go broke playing limit hold'em. The only reason good players go broke is because of bankroll abuse, correct?

[Jeffage]

That and most people can't play well when the [censored] hits the fan. When they run through a really bad streak, they let it affect their play to the point where they are no longer playing winning poker (and now have a short roll). People aren't robots and no one plays as good as they can when getting killed. But many people actually transition to the point where they are no longer winning players. Consistancy is key to long-term success in poker.

Also, the games change. Failure to adjust breaks people as well.

Jeff

[Neil Stevens]

Technically, the risk of ruin is non-zero even with a good bankroll and a positive expectation.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Right. If a player makes anything above 0 BB per 100 hands, how is it possible for them to bust out if they have an adequate bankroll?

[/ QUOTE ]

Variance can bust even a positive expectation player.

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason good players go broke is because of bankroll abuse, correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on reading some of the problematic posts on these forums, a high percentage of "successful" poker players that lose their roll, is because they confuse their "grinding" positive expectancy poker roll with their "gambling" negative expectancy roll.

Placing "it all" on one hand of blackjack or one spin of the wheel, is never a good thing! (win or lose)

[JackStorm]

Listen to the auditory emminations of the players. Lousy players will tell you hard luck stories. Losing players will complain.

Winning players will not complain.If someone is winning in poker they are doing it to themself. If somebody is losing in poker they are doing it to themself.

[Sniper]

Kind of a sidetrack from the issue of going broke...

[ QUOTE ]
Winning players will not complain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some winning players do complain. Just read thru the forums.

[ QUOTE ]
If somebody is losing in poker they are doing it to themself.

[/ QUOTE ]

This not entirely true, even a winning player will have losing streaks, sometimes very large and long ones, this is called variance. The winning players who survive these drawdowns KNOW that these losing streaks are expected!

[JackStorm]

Some winning players do complain. Just read thru the forums.

I should have made it clear that I meant "95+% of the time". Almost all humans complain sometimes but poker winners will complain to a much lessor extent than losing players. I know Hellmuth complains a lot but I think he does that for image and character reasons.

[ QUOTE ]
If somebody is losing in poker they are doing it to themself.

[/ QUOTE ]

This not entirely true, even a winning player will have losing streaks, sometimes very large and long ones, this is called variance. The winning players who survive these drawdowns KNOW that these losing streaks are expected!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is obvious buit again I meant it in an overall sense. Winners will have losing streaks and losers will have winning streaks but for our ultimate results are responsible for our own results our calls, folds, raises etc. If you are playing live 10/20 in a good game with a $5000 BR for 500 hours and you are not winning than you are beating yourself

[KneeCo]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't you agree that the primary reason "successful" players lose their bankroll, is poor bankroll management?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I'm gonna start printing t-shirts:
"Poker is easy, bankroll management is hard."

[primetime32]

I think some of the better poker players went broke because of personal reasons outside of poker. Many poker pl ayers have gone broke because of sports gambling, craps/blackjack, drugs and bad life management. A "good player" is not a good player if he loses money at poker, for whatever reason.

Its like someone saying that he is a great poker player and would have a big profit if not for the times he goes on tilt. It makes no sense.

[xxx]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing live 10/20 in a good game with a $5000 BR for 500 hours and you are not winning than you are beating yourself

[/ QUOTE ]

500 hr @ 30 hands/hr = 15K hands. Streaks (good or bad) can easily last this long.
The long run may be longer than you think . . .

External factors can break a player quite easily...

Wife losses job /images/graemlins/frown.gif

You get seriously ill /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[censored] happens... Try explaining to your wife that the big chunk of money you have, is a tool to make more money and not a source of cash to bail her brother out of jail.