KQo

[brazilio]

111 hands on CO, sLAP. VP$IP of 25, pfr of 10. Some questionable calldowns and he's rather passive at 1.17. I was thinking about giving up on the flop. Other players are weak and similar, too-high VP$IPs and passive.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

[davet]

Looks fine to me, but I wouldn't disagree with c/f the flop.

[lufbradolly]

I don't see the point of betting that flop no aces are gonna fold. Also with 4 players in a reasonable size pot i don't think your gonna get everybody to fold very often.

[davet]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the point of betting that flop no aces are gonna fold. Also with 4 players in a reasonable size pot i don't think your gonna get everybody to fold very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but with pre- flop, you represent possible big slick or american airlines. Attempting to take down the pot right now is not a bad trick.

[Smokey98]

Why are you playing KQo in the first place? Is the table super-loose?

[istewart]

Do the villains go to showdown a lot? This is a pretty good flop for your hand given that you don't have anything (hard for your opponents to peel here with no piece). Unless Villains are definitely calling you with random crap here I think a bet is warranted.

[brazilio]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing KQo in the first place? Is the table super-loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because KQo is a good hand?

[lufbradolly]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the point of betting that flop no aces are gonna fold. Also with 4 players in a reasonable size pot i don't think your gonna get everybody to fold very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but with pre- flop, you represent possible big slick or american airlines. Attempting to take down the pot right now is not a bad trick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is AA not gonna wait till the turn to raise or river having an almost unbeatable hand? But thats besides the point no better hands are folding for 1 SB.

Also if you think of hand ranges for these sort of opponents then a lot of the hands there calling a raise with will contain an A.

But what do i know?

[davet]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing KQo in the first place? Is the table super-loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

KQo is a premium hand in small stakes limit hold'em.

In this hand he flopped a backdoor straight draw to the nuts and may still be good to pair one of his high cards, giving him a great kicker.

Ironically, super- loose tables are where a hand like KQo and even AA devalue, because there is a much higher draw- out potential. KQo shines in both tight and loose situations.

[davet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see the point of betting that flop no aces are gonna fold. Also with 4 players in a reasonable size pot i don't think your gonna get everybody to fold very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but with pre- flop, you represent possible big slick or american airlines. Attempting to take down the pot right now is not a bad trick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is AA not gonna wait till the turn to raise or river having an almost unbeatable hand? But thats besides the point no better hands are folding for 1 SB.

Also if you think of hand ranges for these sort of opponents then a lot of the hands there calling a raise with will contain an A.

But what do i know?

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with you, but he is also looking at four runner- runner possibilities (straight, set, set, two pair), and a possible good high- pair hand. I see the virtues of playing the way he did, but I also see that a check- fold cannot be faulted.

What brazillo did was bet the flop for value, taking advantage of a fairly strong hand. The turn missed him and he folded.

Thinking more about it, I can't think of any bettor way to play it.

[rmarotti]

How's your Sports Illustrated subscription?

[lufbradolly]

I understand what your getting at but these collective backdoor draws don't give us as much equity as your implying.

Also how can we be sure that our pair outs will be good? brazillio said his opponents were passive so if they do have a pair of aces and we turn a king or a queen we could be betting into them and wasting money when a check fold on the flop would prevent that.

Also by checking the flop and it then getting checked through then you can reevaluate on the turn.

I still don't agree with the flop bet though.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

Ironically, super- loose tables are where a hand like KQo and even AA devalue, because there is a much higher draw- out potential. KQo shines in both tight and loose situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give me a [censored] break. Yes there may be higher draw-out potential, but on tables like the type we're talking about, these handes still win more than their fair share and the pots they win are larger.

Equity * avg pot size is the key here.

Just because your equity advantage goes down as the pots get more multiway doesn't mean these hands are losing value.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing KQo in the first place? Is the table super-loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because KQo is a good hand?

[/ QUOTE ]


This is just plain wrong.

[peterchi]

With 1 or 2 opponents I'd definitely bet.

With 3 I think I'd lean more towards a check.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing KQo in the first place? Is the table super-loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because KQo is a good hand?

[/ QUOTE ]


This is just plain wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]


btw for stupid people (ahem ... you know who im referring to) I was being totally 100% sarcastic.

[rmarotti]

b*tch

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing KQo in the first place? Is the table super-loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because KQo is a good hand?

[/ QUOTE ]


This is just plain wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]


btw for stupid people (ahem ... you know who im referring to) I was being totally 100% sarcastic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that how you got to 3618 so quickly?

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing KQo in the first place? Is the table super-loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because KQo is a good hand?

[/ QUOTE ]


This is just plain wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]


btw for stupid people (ahem ... you know who im referring to) I was being totally 100% sarcastic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that how you got to 3618 so quickly?

[/ QUOTE ]


and most of his posts have been strat posts, man, I'm only at like 1800 something and there's a lot of OOT and Politics in there

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are you playing KQo in the first place? Is the table super-loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because KQo is a good hand?

[/ QUOTE ]


This is just plain wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]


btw for stupid people (ahem ... you know who im referring to) I was being totally 100% sarcastic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that how you got to 3618 so quickly?

[/ QUOTE ]


Right as usual /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[davet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ironically, super- loose tables are where a hand like KQo and even AA devalue, because there is a much higher draw- out potential. KQo shines in both tight and loose situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand corrected, I should have said that hands like these win less often.....

Anyway, what is your thoughts on this line?

Give me a [censored] break. Yes there may be higher draw-out potential, but on tables like the type we're talking about, these handes still win more than their fair share and the pots they win are larger.

Equity * avg pot size is the key here.

Just because your equity advantage goes down as the pots get more multiway doesn't mean these hands are losing value.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jake (The Snake)]

sorry for bumping this but I'm wondering why nobody has questioned the turn c/f.

I am pretty sure I bet the turn again with one caller... is this wrong?

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry for bumping this but I'm wondering why nobody has questioned the turn c/f.

I am pretty sure I bet the turn again with one caller... is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jake I've been betting turns in the situations like this a fair amount recently. We probably have some FE against mid PPs, we might still have the best hand against a flush draw, and this is a very easy bet/fold so we won't be moved off the best hand. The pot is starting to get big and is worth putting in one more bet to try and win it.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sorry for bumping this but I'm wondering why nobody has questioned the turn c/f.

I am pretty sure I bet the turn again with one caller... is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jake I've been betting turns in the situations like this a fair amount recently. We probably have some FE against mid PPs, we might still have the best hand against a flush draw, and this is a very easy bet/fold so we won't be moved off the best hand. The pot is starting to get big and is worth putting in one more bet to try and win it.

[/ QUOTE ]

HU I'm tempted to bet again depending on CO stats. He did cc preflop so this is unnerving if he is a decent player. though we are not pushing anyone off a flush draw or a pair. i'm assuming c/f the river UI and c/c a K or Q? or is a K or Q on the river a b/f?

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
With 1 or 2 opponents I'd definitely bet.

With 3 I think I'd lean more towards a check.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree, though knowing the stats will mean a lot too. also this is not a bad board to bet with even with 4 players.

[davet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sorry for bumping this but I'm wondering why nobody has questioned the turn c/f.

I am pretty sure I bet the turn again with one caller... is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jake I've been betting turns in the situations like this a fair amount recently. We probably have some FE against mid PPs, we might still have the best hand against a flush draw, and this is a very easy bet/fold so we won't be moved off the best hand. The pot is starting to get big and is worth putting in one more bet to try and win it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it an easier bet/ fold than a check fold?

HU I'm tempted to bet again depending on CO stats. He did cc preflop so this is unnerving if he is a decent player. though we are not pushing anyone off a flush draw or a pair. i'm assuming c/f the river UI and c/c a K or Q? or is a K or Q on the river a b/f?

[/ QUOTE ]

If the villian is on a flush draw, there is only one clean out, perhaps three if he is on a club draw.

I think the line is good that he didn't improve on the turn and folded, he would be drawing dead to any ace at this point.