Biiiiiiig Pot, Ed Miller scenario

[Roland19]

I think this is an interesting hand. Don't assume that means that I won or lost the hand. Villians are all total donks, they all have stats around 60/20/1.5 ish. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, MP3 folds, CO calls.

River: (19 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 21 BB

Seems like I shouldn't fold in this huge pot for one big bet, so I didn't. Wrong? Right? How so, either way?

[Harv72b]

Unless I'm on the most loose/passive table in history, I'm folding A2s preflop from MP1. Okay, or maybe if all three EPs limped to me.

I'd also 3-bet the flop when it comes back to me the last time. Holding the nut flush draw vs. 4 opponents, you have excellent equity even if the board is paired.

Good call on the river. SB only has to be holding an overpair, straight, or lesser flush 5% of the time for this to be correct; given your read, I'd say this is very likely to work out.

SSHE recommends calling A2s from middle position on a tight table, doesn't it?

[Roland19]

Every thread I ever start ends up as a trivial debate on preflop play. Obviously, this isn't very interesting postflop, and requires no thought or special attention. Forget I even posted it. Have a nice day.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
Every thread I ever start ends up as a trivial debate on preflop play. Obviously, this isn't very interesting postflop, and requires no thought or special attention. Forget I even posted it. Have a nice day.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a mood swing /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Preflop is fine in my books if the table is loose. The rest is standard.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE recommends calling A2s from middle position on a tight table, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It does. I disagree with that advice. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The OP is right, tho...the preflop debate is trivial, and it's the postflop play that deserves attention (and that he's more interested in hearing about).

[Paxosmotic]

Preflop is standard, but you need to raise and reraise this flop for value. Yes, anyone with an 8 or a 5 has a full house draw, and someone could already have it, but boohoo. We stand to win well over our 20% share (5 players in when the action is to us), so we definitely need to pump this draw.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SSHE recommends calling A2s from middle position on a tight table, doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It does. I disagree with that advice. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Whoa. Shouldn't you be repenting and saying "Hail Ed"s (vs "Hail Mary"s) right now? lol

It's an easy call as 67 is indistinguishable from hands that beat you in SB's line and I'd estimate it as 1 in 7 (essentially versus SB holding any 8) that he's got a 67.

[TheHammer24]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is standard, but you need to raise and reraise this flop for value. Yes, anyone with an 8 or a 5 has a full house draw, and someone could already have it, but boohoo. We stand to win well over our 20% share (5 players in when the action is to us), so we definitely need to pump this draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is so huge already that I would raise right off the bat. One poster suggested call, three-betting, which I think is second best. However, if the player on the flop lead out with a pp, it would be real nice to get AX to fold behind us and pick up a couple outs. If they all cold call, cap, behind you, your nut flush draw is plenty of equity for that to be ok. In a big a pot, I think you have to be more aggressive in this spot on the flop. The attitude of "keeping your customers" is very often incorrect in this spot.

FWIW, I think it's a bad limp in MP1 unless the table is very loose passive or if all three limpers limped infront of me. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[setzf]

In the very worst case scenario where your not drawing dead on the flop you would be up against something like A8, KK and TT-22 (except 55), in this case you have exactly 20.9% equity. Since according to the op your up against donks with ridiculous stats you can assume they on average will have worse than this and raise and re-raise the flop for value. BUT i would suggest that if you think there is SIGNIFICANT chance a flop raise will likely fold ALL hands behind you (since you rather be in a multiway pot than heads up with the likely best hand) then a call/3-bet would be best, but this is just dependent on your reads i guess. In any case you have to raise the flop somewhere. the rest seems standard to me.

[lufbradolly]

I'd fold preflop but it's not a big deal.

When its back to you on the flop i'd 3 bet you have an equity edge against 4 players and in this situation you want to be building the pot.

Turn and river standard, can't fold for one bet on the end in a pot this size.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
Villians are all total donks, they all have stats around 60/20/1.5 ish.

[/ QUOTE ]

ALL have these stats? Wow. I need to find 2/4 tables like that ...

[JacksonTens]

Preflop...Does it matter, I say call but in the long run calling or folding A2s is a marginal situation. Postflop however, the flop must be jammed, I lead and 3bet and hope for a cap. Does anyone like a weird donkbet on the turn???
I wouldn't do it myself? but I've got a feeling this pot has so many draws it could scare someone into slowing down... Or does every on hate my donkebet theory of putting money in to put less in...???

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[lighterjobs]

I'm not going to lie, I'm usually limp with Axs from early position at tight tables. But, I will fold it from ep at a loose table. I like the call on the flop but would have led out if it was checked to you. I don't see why the sb would be raising the turn unless he has 67 or an 8. I think this should tell you to just call on the river if he's going to bet out because I doubt he would lead with a straight on that board.

[TheHammer24]

[ QUOTE ]
In the very worst case scenario where your not drawing dead on the flop you would be up against something like A8, KK and TT-22 (except 55), in this case you have exactly 20.9% equity. Since according to the op your up against donks with ridiculous stats you can assume they on average will have worse than this and raise and re-raise the flop for value. BUT i would suggest that if you think there is SIGNIFICANT chance a flop raise will likely fold ALL hands behind you (since you rather be in a multiway pot than heads up with the likely best hand) then a call/3-bet would be best, but this is just dependent on your reads i guess. In any case you have to raise the flop somewhere. the rest seems standard to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very important to realize that calling/3-betting in order to keep your customers is TERRIBLY wrong in this situation. The pot is huge. RAISE! You want to eliminate everyone you possibily can in order to increase your equity. The quoted poster's logic is wrong saying that you would rather play this multiway. You need to raise. It is clearly stated in SSHE if you don't want to take my word for it.

[setzf]

point well taken.

[Luv2DriveTT]

Raise the flop to clean up your A outs (not that a pair of Aces should they hit necessarily be good) should you miss the draw to the flush. You are also raising and for value since the pot is so huge.

River - call that baby every single time!

Pre-flop - considering the table texture, this is fine. Anyone who says its not needs a time out.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif