KJs on the button vs flop donk

[molawn2mo]

ep and mp are slightly loose. sb is 14/9 with average aggression.

ep and mp limp. i raise on the button with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. blinds and limpers call.

flop comes 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

sb bets and all fold to me. i????

[Nick C]

Hmm. If it's a flush draw, you're probably the one who's drawing. If it's a flush and SB hoped to trap the field, you're drawing dead. If it's a set, you're drawing to a runner-runner chop. And you'd kind of think SB would try to checkraise a weak made hand he wanted to protect.

If you knew you were up against the naked A /images/graemlins/spade.gif, you could raise and try to steal with turn and river follow-up bets (provided neither an ace or another spade falls). It's sort of an expensive play, though, and there's no guarantee it'll work, even if SB misses.

I think I'd probably just fold.

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
ep and mp are slightly loose. sb is 14/9 with average aggression.

ep and mp limp. i raise on the button with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. blinds and limpers call.

flop comes 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

sb bets and all fold to me. i????

[/ QUOTE ]

i call

turn is J /images/graemlins/club.gif

sb bets, i raise and he calls.

river is a red blank

i bet, he calls and proceeds to berate me about imminently going broker, getting a new hobby, etc.

it was a rather thoughtful (not necessarily correct) decision to call the flop; his flop donk just screamed A /images/graemlins/spade.gifx non- /images/graemlins/spade.gif. He had the exact hand that I put him on. Was my flop call foolish? Been running somewhat bad lately.

[Nick C]

I think peeling is fine against specifically A /images/graemlins/spade.gif x, where x is not a spade or a jack or king. (And a king is pretty unlikely.) I started to mention peeling in my original response but then decided the set and flush possibilities probably made it not such a good idea.

[newhizzle]

assuming he had what he ahd you had 4 clean outs, you had the right odds to peel, but i dont know how his redraws work into the equation

edit:or other possible holdings

[amulet]

on the flop you have no pair and no draw. assuming he only has the A your still behind. if he has a pair and the A you are in worse shap, and he could have 2 pair, a set, or a made flush. there are too many redraws even in you are ahead. you got one of 6 perfect cards on the turn, and he only had the A. but over time this will cost you money, fold.

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
you got one of 6 perfect cards on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

4 perfect cards, K /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/spade.gif no good

[molawn2mo]

my thoughts were that even though i was behind to his A, if he did not hit his flush, he would/ought not call the river with A high.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
my thoughts were that even though i was behind to his A, if he did not hit his flush, he would/ought not call the river with A high.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is something to this, but there is the question of what your calls flop and turn calls would represent. If BB suspects, say, K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif, he might look you up. Or if he has A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif outkicked, he might take that possible hand into consideration too.

Anyway, though, he's kind of tight, so there probably aren't really all that many available combos of A /images/graemlins/spade.gif X that Villain could have. AKo would probably be a 3-bet. And I don't know where he starts folding preflop, but ATo is one guess. AQo-AJo, where the ace is a spade, is just 7 combos (you have one of the jacks). He may not take the gap concept into account all that much, and maybe he loosens up substantially from the blinds, too. So AQo-AJo could be too narrow of a range. But there are a number of available combos of other, better hands (there are nine combos that make sets, for instance).

[molawn2mo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my thoughts were that even though i was behind to his A, if he did not hit his flush, he would/ought not call the river with A high.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is something to this, but there is the question of what your calls flop and turn calls would represent. If BB suspects, say, K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif, he might look you up. Or if he has A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif outkicked, he might take that possible hand into consideration too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you hit it on the head here - him looking me up with A high. I actually couldn;t believe it when he called the river. He viewed my turn raise as a spade holding semi-bluff that I continuation bet on the river. Nice analysis, Nick! Is his "read" of my hand (assuming he reads it as a semi-bluff turn raise) appropriate? After all, I did raise preflop. He holds the A of trump. He puts me on KsQx? I think that is stretching and my bet looks more like overpair waiting for a safe (non-spade) turn to raise.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my thoughts were that even though i was behind to his A, if he did not hit his flush, he would/ought not call the river with A high.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is something to this, but there is the question of what your calls flop and turn calls would represent. If BB suspects, say, K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif, he might look you up. Or if he has A /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif outkicked, he might take that possible hand into consideration too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you hit it on the head here - him looking me up with A high. I actually couldn;t believe it when he called the river. He viewed my turn raise as a spade holding semi-bluff that I continuation bet on the river. Nice analysis, Nick! Is his "read" of my hand (assuming he reads it as a semi-bluff turn raise) appropriate? After all, I did raise preflop. He holds the A of trump. He puts me on KsQx? I think that is stretching and my bet looks more like overpair waiting for a safe (non-spade) turn to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could have also had a broadway spade and a jack as one of your overcards.

I think Villain's river call was pretty optimistic.

Anyway, though, I guess he was hoping your turn raise was the king-high semi-bluff you mentioned.

[csuf_gambler]

am i missing something, isn't this a easy and clear flop fold?

[pauliewalnuts]

Seems like a lot of people advocate peeling one here, but Im with you. I'm dumping this without much hesitation on the flop.