Four Hands vs xxTHEJOKERxx stars 10-20 [Archive]

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Jason Strasser

09-09-2005, 07:08 PM

For those who don't know, this player is very good IMO. Extremely loose preflop and smart LAG postflop. Hands are in chronological order, and I think the first is by far the most interesting to discuss. How did I do? Hand 2 and 4 are very similar, and I'm wondering if I should contine to take this approach or if I'm just going to broke playing like that.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($3776)
BB ($477.50)
Hero ($2498)
MP1 ($8403)
MP2 ($2560)
CO ($2194)
Button ($1824)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises to $80, MP1 calls $80, MP2 calls $80, 1 fold, Button calls $80, 2 folds.

Flop: ($350) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $280, MP1 calls $280, MP2 calls $280, Button folds.

Turn: ($1190) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $440, MP1 calls $440, MP2 folds.

River: ($2070) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $400, MP1 raises to $7603, Hero calls $1298 (All-In).

Final Pot: $11371

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($7496.50)
Hero ($2000)
Button ($3857.50)
SB ($4751)
BB ($2000)
UTG ($388)
UTG+1 ($5096.90)
MP1 ($1500)
MP2 ($2000)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls $20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $100, Button calls $100, SB calls $90, 1 fold, MP1 calls $80.

Flop: ($420) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets $280, SB folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $1900

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($5476)
Hero ($1920)
BB ($2115)
UTG ($1957.50)
MP ($10079.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $20, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($60) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $60, BB folds, MP raises to $180, Hero calls $120.

Turn: ($420) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($420) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $340 with the plan to fold to a raise probably.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (3 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($2010)
BB ($8470)
Button ($3210)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $80, BB calls $60.

Flop: ($160) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $120, BB raises to $400, Hero raises to $1930

-Jason

jayheaps

09-09-2005, 07:12 PM

Hand 1: My biggest issue if bet size. I think you probably need to bet more, especially considering that you have 2 flop callers. Not having played against him much, i would also have considered a flop check-raise. Given his tendancies though, not sure if the result of the hand woulf change much since thats a tough laydown to make.

fsuplayer

09-09-2005, 07:21 PM

in hand 1, I think you need to check or bet alot, maybe all in.

your hand is strong atm, but half the deck is not good on the river.

were you hoping to get raised I guess?

it looks like he waited for the river for some reason to make his move, hopefully thats all it is, a move with little to nothing.

i like the other ones fine, i think.

i really like the 1010 hand, letting the button bet, see the action, then pound him when it ends up being HU.

i certainly dont envy your variance against this guy though /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Jason Strasser

09-09-2005, 07:28 PM

Yes, I really didnt see myself folding hand one so I made a bet to induce action from a bluff or to induce a possible value raise with a worse hand like a set, which he is capable of if he thought I'd call it off with AA here.

-Jason

lapoker17

09-09-2005, 07:32 PM

In hand 1 you have to pot the turn. You were apparently looking to get raised, but in reality you priced in any draw. He's probably good enought o know you wanted to get raised there, so he didn't. I make the call as well, but hate doing it. I'm assuming you won the hand.

The others look good to me - although I'm not sure I'd fold to a raise in the last one.

neon

09-09-2005, 08:26 PM

In hand #1, what was your reasoning for betting so little on the turn? I'm betting at least $1k here; the only possible rationale I can come up w/ for not making a pottish, committing raise is (aside from the obvious one, him having J8) the fear that he's freerolling you (A/images/graemlins/heart.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, etc). I suppose you might have been trying to induce a bluff/semi-bluff raise out of him on the turn, representing an overpair that's scared of the board, since that's certainly something I would fancy a good post-flop playing LAG capable of.

I'm not wild paying off on the river, either, but your hand is so well disguised that he could be pushing a set or even two pair, putting you on an overpair . . .

In hand #2, I'm not sure what your image is, but this bet seems a bit reckless to me, unless villain thinks you're tilting from hand one, when you called on the river and lost to villain's flush, and is apt to put you on two big hearts, or air. I'm guessing you're going for a call from a smaller overpair, but I doubt that a smart LAG villain will pay you off w/ something you're ahead of, or at best a flip against.

The river in hand #3 seems like a good spot to check and induce a bluff. I don't think you're missing out on much value by not betting, as I doubt he's paying you off w/ a hand you beat (save for perhaps a K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifx/images/graemlins/diamond.gif hand), and he's probably capable of making a big bluff raise on a scary board like that, and you'll have to lay down.

Hand #4 is fine, I think he's going to have such a huge range of hands here three-handed, and he's probably going to look you up w/ some hands you're ahead of, and you're drawing live either way (unless he flopped the nuts) . . .

Stormwolf

09-09-2005, 08:28 PM

why not check-raise allin on the turn on hand 1, that board will hit two opponents a lot so a bet will probably come

arod15

09-09-2005, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For those who don't know, this player is very good IMO. Extremely loose preflop and smart LAG postflop. Hands are in chronological order, and I think the first is by far the most interesting to discuss. How did I do? Hand 2 and 4 are very similar, and I'm wondering if I should contine to take this approach or if I'm just going to broke playing like that.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($3776)
BB ($477.50)
Hero ($2498)
MP1 ($8403)
MP2 ($2560)
CO ($2194)
Button ($1824)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
Hero raises to $80, MP1 calls $80, MP2 calls $80, 1 fold, Button calls $80, 2 folds.

Flop: ($350) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $280, MP1 calls $280, MP2 calls $280, Button folds.

Turn: ($1190) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $440, MP1 calls $440, MP2 folds.

River: ($2070) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $400, MP1 raises to $7603, Hero calls $1298 (All-In).

Final Pot: $11371

GOOD

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($7496.50)
Hero ($2000)
Button ($3857.50)
SB ($4751)
BB ($2000)
UTG ($388)
UTG+1 ($5096.90)
MP1 ($1500)
MP2 ($2000)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls $20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $100, Button calls $100, SB calls $90, 1 fold, MP1 calls $80.

Flop: ($420) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets $280, SB folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $1900

Dont like it all. i think a raise is in order but all in? Why so much?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($5476)
Hero ($1920)
BB ($2115)
UTG ($1957.50)
MP ($10079.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $20, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($60) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $60, BB folds, MP raises to $180, Hero calls $120.

Turn: ($420) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($420) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $340 with the plan to fold to a raise probably.

Right you have to fold that is Standard.
But I think you bet too little, i think i make it 400-500 here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (3 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($2010)
BB ($8470)
Button ($3210)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $80, BB calls $60.

Flop: ($160) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $120, BB raises to $400, Hero raises to $1930

I like the push

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

BobboFitos

09-09-2005, 09:19 PM

Hand 1,

other people commented on betting more on the turn, what about c/r arr in? that turn is the "perfect" card for a smart / aggro like joker to make you laydown... how can he put you on an 8 here?

will he really take the freebie with a wide range of hands? more importantly, would you fire with an overpair here? (If so the river line and payoff is more believable..)

Hand 4 is relatively standard, no?

09-09-2005, 10:10 PM

those hands all seem pretty basic, seems to me like those were pretty common plays, on hand 1# dont seem him making flush on the river with a overbet like that...

hockeyf

09-09-2005, 11:12 PM

Hand 1 is not an overbet on the river, so the flush is possible.

creedofhubris

09-09-2005, 11:35 PM

Hand #1 is the only one I don't like. The small turn bet accomplishes little. A check or a big bet would be better IMO.

Hand #3, I don't like calling the flop raise, but I don't know the villain, so I'm willing to say you know what you're doing.

Jman28

09-09-2005, 11:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $20 BB (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($5476)
Hero ($1920)
BB ($2115)
UTG ($1957.50)
MP ($10079.70)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $20, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($60) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $60, BB folds, MP raises to $180, Hero calls $120.

Turn: ($420) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($420) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $340 with the plan to fold to a raise probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jason, could you tell me what kind of hand(s) you would put him on if he raised the river? I don't see how I could fold if I were raised there, mostly because of the draws that missed.

PrayingMantis

09-10-2005, 06:45 AM

Jason, I'm interested in your thinking for hand 3. When you call the flop raise, what do you put villain on? did you become suspicious because he didn't continue betting on the turn? How many of the hands that he limps like that PF, raise flop, check turn and raise river are you behind exactly, etc?

Of course this is particularly interesting since you say you probably fold to a river raise. Did you think about checking river for instance? Or in other words: what is the information you gained on the turn and river (after the flop call) that makes you think the best river line is betting-folding to a raise?

I also think that even your gut-shot on the flop here does not really worth much, since a T is an ugly card for him if he does have a big hand. So I'm interested in your thoughts.

RUSE

09-10-2005, 07:53 AM

Yeah. My first thought upon seeing the flop-raise was that villain had a low FD and he wanted to see the river cheaply. Might be bottom two or maybe 98 or some such hand, but I can't find a fold OTR. Wouldn't he continue aggression on the turn with a made hand and a decent chance to be drawn out?

I think the riverbet is fine, but then I don't know anything about your opponents playing style.