stud hi-lo/8 simulation

[jake-free]

can you refer me to a simulation,
percentage of pots won with 7 stud hi/lo 8 or better,ranked?

[Andy B]

I don't think such a thing exists. If it did, what would you do with it? One useful tool is www.twodimes.net (http://www.twodimes.net) , on which you can see how two or more hands do against one another.

[droidboy]

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~prock/poker/hilo-10000-sorted

[jake-free]

thank you very much droidboy
jake

[jake-free]

can you please add more data end explanations,?
thanks

[Andy B]

Well, gosh, you got exactly what you asked for, and as I suspected, you didn't know what to do with it.

Sklansky's hold'em rankings are useful in large part because hand values don't change very much in that game. Sklansky also takes into account how poker is played. I suspect that the rankings shown here are computed by pitting each holding against six random hands, simulating 100,000 or so hands, and seeing how they do when everyone goes to the showdown. Even the wildest, loosest games are not played this way. Also, stud hand values can change dramatically depending on what else is showing. Take 6/forums/images/icons/club.gif 5/forums/images/icons/club.gif <font color="red">4/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif</font color>. That's a pretty powerful starting hand, but it's significantly weakened if folks are showing, say, 7/forums/images/icons/club.gif <font color="red">7</font color>/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 3/forums/images/icons/club.gif <font color="red">3</font color>/forums/images/icons/heart.gif 2/forums/images/icons/spade.gif A/forums/images/icons/club.gif and <font color="red">8</font color>/forums/images/icons/heart.gif. I'm not saying you should necessarily throw the hand away, but where you would probably raise with this hand under normal circumstances, a limp is probably best given that a lot of the cards you need are out.

Another thing about this list: big pairs other than Aces (and those only with a small kicker) look kind of crappy. There is, of course, something to this. A lot of players lose money with big pairs. I don't make much myself. Way back when, high-low split was played without the eight-or-better qualifier. In that game, high pairs were completely unplayable--the low hands were completely free-rolling on them. One authority, Albert Morehead, even advocates folding rolled-up trips (except Aces) in a high-low split/cards speak game. With the eight-or-better qualifier, big pairs become playable because they have some scoop potential when the lows bust out. You have to play the later streets well, but a pair of Kings is a profitable hand. The key, though, is to limit the number of opponents if at all possible. A pair of Kings is best against a single opponent with a banana in the door, but heads-up it's also a slight money favorite against, say, <font color="red">5</font color>/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif <font color="red">4</font color>/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. Against a weaker low hand, it's even better. Of course, once the low gets there, the balance of power shifts, and then you have to decide whether you want to pay three big bets to see if you can get your money back.

This list doesn't take into account how dramatically hand values can change from one street to the next. Here are three consecutive hands from that list:

9/forums/images/icons/club.gif 3/forums/images/icons/club.gif 2/forums/images/icons/club.gif 0.185
<font color="red">8</font color>/forums/images/icons/heart.gif <font color="red">5</font color>/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 2/forums/images/icons/club.gif 0.185
4/forums/images/icons/club.gif <font color="red">4</font color>/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif <font color="red">3</font color>/forums/images/icons/heart.gif 0.185

All of these hands apparently have the same amount of equity, but they're very different hands. I'll take the middle one first. This one has no potential to become very strong on fourth street unless it catches a low card, no one else has a four-card low, and some high hands stay in. This is an awful lot to ask for. The first hand, on the other hand, can become quite strong if it catches a small club, strong enough if it catches a big club, and is usually still worth playing if you catch an off-suit baby. The third hand can become quite strong by catching a 4, and possibly playable if it catches another baby. If you catch another Trey, I don't know what to tell you. If anyone has figured out how to play two small pair in this game, please let us know. Anyway, the first hand, if live, is worth limping in with, and may be worth calling a full bet with if very live. The third hand is worth limping in with, but probably not worth playing for a full bet. The middle hand should almost always be mucked unless it is the only low hand in.

This list is interesting, and I intend to return to it, but it is far less useful than the chapter on starting hands in Ray Zee's book. Apart from the unfortunate omission of low flush starts that don't happen to be straight flush draws (you can probably figure out about where they should go), he provides about everything you need in order to learn how to play your starting hand. There is also some relevant stuff in 7CS4AP such as "The Cards That Are Out."

[Rick Nebiolo]