View Full Version : Pulsating universe theory
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-09-2005, 04:58 PM
Some drinks got me thinking...
Assuming the universe will eventually colapse on itself and do the big bang thing over and over again:
Could we escape this fate w/ a spaceship? Could we have enough power to fly "out" of the universe and escape its gravity? If so what would happen to the universe? Would it be just short of the matter required to do its thang?
Jacob_Gilliam
09-09-2005, 05:01 PM
This is an idiotic question.
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-09-2005, 05:10 PM
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This is an idiotic question.
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and.........IGNORE!
You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.
where would you fly out of the universe to? remember, the universe is all of space and time. also, on a practical level, the universe is way too big to fly across.
BluffTHIS!
09-09-2005, 05:51 PM
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Could we escape this fate w/ a spaceship?
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Yes you could. The spaceship will be waiting behind the next comet to come along. You have to have enough faith to kill yourself first though to board it.
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-09-2005, 05:52 PM
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where would you fly out of the universe to? remember, the universe is all of space and time. also, on a practical level, the universe is way too big to fly across.
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we dont know that for sure. Also, this question is entirely hypothetical and based on an assumption.
SomethingClever
09-09-2005, 05:59 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to just artificially keep the universe from imploding?
Or travel backwards in time a bit?
In fact, this seems like the obvious answer.
A_C_Slater
09-09-2005, 06:01 PM
Your wacky schemes can't save you.
One day you'll just have to die, like all the others.
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-09-2005, 06:02 PM
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Your wacky schemes can't save you.
One day you'll just have to die, like all the others.
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agreed. but could robots do it?
SomethingClever
09-09-2005, 06:02 PM
By the time we have to worry about the universe imploding, we'll be advanced enough that we won't have to worry about dying if we don't want to.
Assuming we make it that far.
SomethingClever
09-09-2005, 06:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
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Your wacky schemes can't save you.
One day you'll just have to die, like all the others.
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agreed. but could robots do it?
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Also, forgot to mention, I will have my brain implanted in a robot body with the strength of 10 gorillas, so I'll be fine.
I'll just strap myself into my FTL ship with my go-rilla strength and take a trip back to 1982 to hang with Uncle Rico.
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-09-2005, 06:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Your wacky schemes can't save you.
One day you'll just have to die, like all the others.
[/ QUOTE ]
agreed. but could robots do it?
[/ QUOTE ]
Also, forgot to mention, I will have my brain implanted in a robot body with the strength of 10 gorillas, so I'll be fine.
I'll just strap myself into my FTL ship with my go-rilla strength and take a trip back to 1982 to hang with Uncle Rico.
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i get to be a tiger-bot
No more chance than a piece of terd escaping a toilet flush, my man /images/graemlins/wink.gif
evil_twin
09-10-2005, 05:53 AM
Current thinking is that the universe will continue to expand forever, and in fact in will contiue to expand at an ever increasing rate, see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_universe#Implications_for_the_fate_of_th e_universe).
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-10-2005, 03:42 PM
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No more chance than a piece of terd escaping a toilet flush, my man /images/graemlins/wink.gif
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So youre saying there is a chance? YES!!!!!!!!!
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-10-2005, 03:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Current thinking is that the universe will continue to expand forever, and in fact in will contiue to expand at an ever increasing rate, see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_universe#Implications_for_the_fate_of_th e_universe).
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Im pretty sure that there are 3 or 4 current theories out there. One is that it will expand and slow down. One is the one you mention. One is that it will pulsate. Im not sure what string theory has to say on this subject...
evil_twin
09-10-2005, 04:43 PM
You're right, but there is more to the picture.
Certainly until relatively recently there have been 3 theories. The first is that the universe is expanding rapidly enough that gravity will never "take hold" and force a collapse. However, rate at which the universe expands will gradually reduce due to the action of gravity on all the matter in the universe.
The second is that gravity will take hold and cause all the matter in the universe to collapse back on itself. We could potentially get another big bang event or whatever at that point, it's unknown.
The third option is that there is exactly the right amount of matter so the universe "just" stops expanding then sits there, in balance.
Until the late 1990s these were the accepted possibilities. Recent observations of a certain supernova type have shown us that the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. This is a very significant result.
The implication is that there is some additional force that we cannot currently explain which is acting against gravity and pushing the matter in the universe apart faster and faster.
The clever particle and string theory guys call the cause of this force "dark matter" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy).
It's highly significant, and probably the most exciting development in modern physics in the last 20 years. It will be huge when we figure out the details.
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-10-2005, 05:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You're right, but there is more to the picture.
Certainly until relatively recently there have been 3 theories. The first is that the universe is expanding rapidly enough that gravity will never "take hold" and force a collapse. However, rate at which the universe expands will gradually reduce due to the action of gravity on all the matter in the universe.
The second is that gravity will take hold and cause all the matter in the universe to collapse back on itself. We could potentially get another big bang event or whatever at that point, it's unknown.
The third option is that there is exactly the right amount of matter so the universe "just" stops expanding then sits there, in balance.
Until the late 1990s these were the accepted possibilities. Recent observations of a certain supernova type have shown us that the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. This is a very significant result.
The implication is that there is some additional force that we cannot currently explain which is acting against gravity and pushing the matter in the universe apart faster and faster.
The clever particle and string theory guys call the cause of this force "dark matter" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy).
It's highly significant, and probably the most exciting development in modern physics in the last 20 years. It will be huge when we figure out the details.
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I didnt know that dark matter was a force /images/graemlins/confused.gif
correct me if im wrong, but didnt we discover (or at least think we did) that the universe is slowing down based on the dopler effect? I recall learning that somewhere.
this site (http://www.daviddarling.info/index.html) is awsome and has a detailed explination of dark matter as we know it. I will be reading this for hours.
evil_twin
09-10-2005, 05:50 PM
Actually I should have written "dark energy" in place of dark matter. Two different things. My bad.
evil_twin
09-10-2005, 05:59 PM
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correct me if im wrong, but didnt we discover (or at least think we did) that the universe is slowing down based on the dopler effect? I recall learning that somewhere.
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I don't remember that and I would have wanted to notice such a discovery (although that doesn't mean it didn't happen). You may be thinking of the discovery that the universe is expanding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_constant)?
It's always been a goal of cosmology to figure out the mass of the universe. This was the holy grail, and would allow us to figure out the "hubble constant". IE: Is the universe going to collapse on itself or expand forever.
Various estimates of the Hubble constant have been made over the years, some predicting a crush, some an expansion.
However the big shock came in 1998 when "q" (see link above) was found to be negative, implying that not only the universe is expanding, it is expanding at an ever increasing rate. Something is pushing matter apart over vast distances more strongly than gravity is pulling it together. WTF eh?!
Jeez, tough crowd
I haven't read all the replies, but the theory I am aware of about the contracting-expanding-contracting universe is where right now we are inside a giant black hole where the even horizon contains the whole universe, so no, you could never escape
This is possible because the larger the sphere, the less dense it is required to be for it to be a black hole. For instance, you could have a density of 1 atom per cubic light-year, but as long as this is true for a big enough sphericall volume, you have a black hole. I think.
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-10-2005, 09:00 PM
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Jeez, tough crowd
I haven't read all the replies, but the theory I am aware of about the contracting-expanding-contracting universe is where right now we are inside a giant black hole where the even horizon contains the whole universe, so no, you could never escape
This is possible because the larger the sphere, the less dense it is required to be for it to be a black hole. For instance, you could have a density of 1 atom per cubic light-year, but as long as this is true for a big enough sphericall volume, you have a black hole. I think.
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that sounds very interesting. got any links?
RevAgain
09-10-2005, 10:15 PM
I don't think anyone has made the point that it's impossible because space and time are a function of our universe. The universe isn't moving into empty space as it expands, it's creating that space. It is not a vacuum outside of the universe, we can't power our way out of spacetime.
You'll have to go looking for wormholes into other universes or dimensions to escape that big crunch if it comes I'm afraid.
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-10-2005, 11:55 PM
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I don't think anyone has made the point that it's impossible because space and time are a function of our universe. The universe isn't moving into empty space as it expands, it's creating that space. It is not a vacuum outside of the universe, we can't power our way out of spacetime.
You'll have to go looking for wormholes into other universes or dimensions to escape that big crunch if it comes I'm afraid.
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im dont think that we know this for sure. Also i think someone said that already.
benkahuna
09-11-2005, 02:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Some drinks got me thinking...
Assuming the universe will eventually colapse on itself and do the big bang thing over and over again:
Could we escape this fate w/ a spaceship? Could we have enough power to fly "out" of the universe and escape its gravity? If so what would happen to the universe? Would it be just short of the matter required to do its thang?
[/ QUOTE ]
No. Nowhere to go and the forces would be so powerful you could not escape their wrath. It's much more powerful than an aluminum can crusher. It doesn't matter how drunk you are!
Other guy mentioned wormholes to another universe. Yep, that's pretty much your only hope based on what we've guessed.
Without reading the thread further and thinking how I would do it too.,....I would certainly be able to know when the reverse effect would start...hence I would know when to start putting energy into just staying at my point or getting further. I would just start my rocket ship the second the universe start collapsing...its gonna catch up soon enough.
No links I'm afraid, I can't remember where I heard the idea that the Universe could be inside a giant event horizon, and hence we will eventually collaspe into a singularity. At the time I thought "meh, whatever"
But then I learned a bit of physics which can explain it a bit. The radius of an event horizon is:
r = d * M
where d is just a constant (happens to be 2G/c^2, G the gravitational constant, c the speed of light) and M is the mass inside the black hole
You could say that if you had a mass M uniformally distributed inside a sphere of radius r, this will become/is a black hole if M>r/d
so, suppose you had some material of denisity p
The if you filled up a sphere with this material the mass inside would be density*volume, which would be:
M = p*(4/3*pi*r^3)
p = density, pi = 3.141...
so, the requirement for a black hole to exist is as said before
M>r/d
but we know M, so the requirement is:
p*4/3*pi*r^3>r/d
and with some algebra, the requirement becomes:
r>(4/3*p*pi*d)^(-1/2)
the right hand side will just be a constant, since p and pi and d are all constants, and it will always be finite as long as p>0 (meaning the material is not massles)
so what this shows is, as long as you make your 'r' big enough, which means make your sphere big enough, you have a black hole
so basically the argument is if the universe is big enough and is close enough to being uniformly distributed, we may be inside a giant black hole
I'm guessing there are several complications in the real world, for example the fact that mass is moving, but that's the general idea
xniNja
09-11-2005, 05:28 AM
This is, in fact, ridiculous. You can ignore me if you like, but if you don't define universe as specifically different than universe, then it is "one" existence. By definition you cannot escape the one universe, as your existence is defined within it.
Now, let's assume for a moment there are more universes, to the extreme, infinite...
Could a "wormhole" lead to an alternate universe?
Yes, there could also be "heaven" on the other end, unicorns, leprechauns, 1942, and Michael Jackson's neverland.
My argument is that all of them are equally probable.
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Actually I should have written "dark energy" in place of dark matter. Two different things. My bad.
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Is this dark energy the same as 'nothingness' that zen people talk about?
Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!
09-11-2005, 03:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is, in fact, ridiculous. You can ignore me if you like, but if you don't define universe as specifically different than universe, then it is "one" existence. By definition you cannot escape the one universe, as your existence is defined within it.
Now, let's assume for a moment there are more universes, to the extreme, infinite...
Could a "wormhole" lead to an alternate universe?
Yes, there could also be "heaven" on the other end, unicorns, leprechauns, 1942, and Michael Jackson's neverland.
My argument is that all of them are equally probable.
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why would i ignore you?
evil_twin
09-11-2005, 03:07 PM
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Is this dark energy the same as 'nothingness' that zen people talk about?
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Not at all, it's a "real" thing. We just don't really know what it is yet. See that link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy) I posted earlier. Or have I missed a joke here? /images/graemlins/smile.gif
evil_twin
09-11-2005, 03:13 PM
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By definition you cannot escape the one universe, as your existence is defined within it.
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There are plenty of ideas relating to many universes of which our universe is just one (the "multiverse"). You might suggest that we could never escape our one universe, and for sure you're right at the moment. People said we couldn't fly though....
KKbluff
09-12-2005, 12:52 AM
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No. Nowhere to go and the forces would be so powerful you could not escape their wrath. It's much more powerful than an aluminum can crusher. It doesn't matter how drunk you are!
Other guy mentioned wormholes to another universe. Yep, that's pretty much your only hope based on what we've guessed.
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To my understanding the only thing that can leave our universe is gravity (or more specifically gravitons).
These gravitons have the potential to enter the other parallel universes.
This is mainly based on string theory..
No, it was a serious question.
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