poker and christianity

[spaminator101]

So most of my Christian friends say that poker is a sin and all that. Is there anyway to convince them that it isn't. any help would be appreciated.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
So most of my Christian friends say that poker is a sin and all that. Is there anyway to convince them that it isn't. any help would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just persuade them they are mistaken to be christians /images/graemlins/smile.gif

chez

Are you completely sure it isn't a sin according to christian faith, or is it just too enjoyable to give up in case it is?

[krimson]

Does your Mom play bingo?

If it isn't a sin it shouldn't be too hard to convince them.

If it is, why are you still playing?

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Most activities that we participate in everyday is one form or another of gambling. When I get up and go to work in the morning I do so because I expect the outcome to be +EV, although I am not assured of this (such as if I die on the way there). Mostly poker is considered bad because A) there is a high short term volatility, and B) most people lose in the long run. But then again picking stocks can have high volatilty (in some cases) and most people don't call that a sin. Also, many other activities that people participate in are negative long term, such as eating and drinking habits, watching too much T.V., sleeping too much,
etc., yet people don't consider them to be sins (at least not on the level of poker) because a much greater percentage of the population commit these acts, and it's harder to call everyone a sinner than just a few select groups who participate in activities that we don't participate in.

[txag007]

"So most of my Christian friends say that poker is a sin and all that. Is there anyway to convince them that it isn't. any help would be appreciated."

Obviously, you won't find the word "poker" in the Bible. The Bible really doesn't discuss gambling either, at least not in a literal sense. What it does do , though, is warn against certain aspects of the human character that gambling tends to bring out. For instance, it tells us that greed or covetousness is a sin. Paul writes to Timothy that "the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil". If this is why you are playing poker then perhaps you are sinning. It doesn't mean, though, that the game itself is a sin.

The Bible also talks about the value of work and warns against "get rich quick" schemes. Biblically, we are to gain wealth over a long period of time. Again, that doesn't mean the game of poker is evil. More than anything, it is God telling us not to put ourselves in -EV situations. (Ha, and you all thought that the Bible is a bunch of nonsense!)

And of course becoming addicted to poker or any type of gambling would be a sin for a multitude of reasons. That's true in other areas of life, as well.

I hope this helps.

[hmkpoker]

What scriptural basis do they have to support that notion?

[Georgia Avenue]

How can anyone who believes in pre-destination think that gambling is wrong? In a way, it's a kind of sacrifice to God, right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously, though I have spent a long time contemplating this and in fact it is what drew me to this board (my first post was re: Christianity and Gambling (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=scimathphil&Number=2716417 &Forum=,f33,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main=271 6105&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=36752&daterang e=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post2716417)

Recently I had the good fortune to play NL with a full-fledged Rabbi, who told me he found nothing in the Torah to decry poker as a Game with an element of luck, rather than pure gambling which could easily LEAD to sinful behavior. I'm not Jewish, but hey, he's a Rabbi for crying out loud! Good enough for me. (He was quite a good player too actually...though I took a big pot from him when my quads smacked his FH on the river. Take that Judaism!/images/graemlins/cool.gif)

Question: Is there any way to convince a Christian that playing poker is not a sin?
Answer: NO
The reason most Christians that I have encountered believe that gambling in general is a sin is because the Roman soldiers at the foot of the cross cast lots (shot dice maybe) for the cloak and the coat of the Christ as he was being crucified. That is if they even know why their Church has condemned gambling. They seem to forget that the casting of lots was directed by God in order to divine His will on several occasions. (prov 16:32, lev. 16:8-10, joshua 14-21, Num 26:55 33:54 34:13 36:2, I cor24:5 31,25:8-9 26:13-14, and Jon 1:7) and in the New Testiment The casting of lots was used by the Apostles to selest Matthias to fill the spot vacated by Judas in the apostleship. (Acts 1:26) They also think that we are too stupid to controll our bankroll. (That we will go broke and our families will go hungry.) Oh and some of them think that any extra money you have to play poker (gamble) should be given to the Church. This statement is not indicitive of all Christians, just the type you are referring to. Also this statement is only a conjecture from my personal expierience.

Georgia Avenue mentioned a poker playing Rabbi, I also have personal knowledge of poker playing clergy, a full fledged Catholic Priest, so go figure

[BluffTHIS!]

Here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2716105&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=1&vc=1) you can find an earlier thread on this. Below is my response from that thread.

"My church, the Catholic Church, teaches that gambling is not in itself sinful but only becomes so if once gambles with money necessary to provide the livelihood for himself/family or necessary to meet his otherwise just obligations, or if one should cheat at such games. I would also personally think it morally unacceptable to hustle games with gambling addicted persons who cannot afford it, as advocated in that cynical masterpiece by Frank Wallace. The other aspect that has to do with morality is the legal one, in that you are normally morally obliged to follow all just laws. I personally have no problem playing in 'illegal' homegames or online because I do not believe the laws against same are just because they are not applied equally but to benefit various states and corporations that are allowed special exemptions for lotteries and casinos that have an interest in limiting competition."

Maybe poker needs the Rabbi and the Priest and the EVangelist of The Greater Apostilitic Penticostal Remormation Church of Jesus Christ through the touch of the Almighty Baptizing Wind in poker
After all Jesus himself hung out with sinners

[David Sklansky]

Is being a topless dancer a sin? I ask because they seem about equivalent.

[BluffTHIS!]

Gambling does/is not:

-degrade women
-promote prostitution
-an activity that would embarass you were your mother to do it

[NotReady]

There was a thread on this a while back. See here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2716105&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

I just skimmed through it again. I would highly recommend The Dude's post.

[sexdrugsmoney]

Spaminator,

I believe BluffTHIS! was on the right track when he pointed out you were young and wanted to learn more about your faith, though perhaps he would prefer you trade Calvin for Ratzinger ( /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) I believe he touched upon a quite important issue.

The teen years are a struggle for everyone and it can get hard to keep your faith in these times. IMHO The thing which has the most chance of making dispondant regarding your faith is misinformation from people you trust, that means your pastor, your christian friends, your parents etc.

While the Bible says fellowship is important, incorrect fellowship will only hurt and not help.

That being said, here's a quote I believe is a level headed approach to the subject though I believe it is ignorant of the skill one can posess to tip the odds in their favour, it is a more realistic approach to the subject:

[ QUOTE ]

Gambling and the Christian

Is gambling sinful? No, not in and of itself, but it can be. Some Christians will disagree with gambling on the grounds that spending one's money (that really belongs to God) in such a fashion is really poor stewardship. But one argument in favor of the Christian's freedom to indulge in gambling is the people who do it purely for the entertainment value. In this sense, it could be considered in the same manner as movies or Disneyland: one would have to weigh the degree of entertainment with the monetary value placed on it. The more entertaining an event is, the more money that activity is worth. (e.g., I wouldn't pay $50 to see The Prince of Egypt, but I might pay $2.50 for the diversion).

Now just as with any source of pleasure or entertainment, the Christian must guard against becoming mastered by the pleasure. "And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things" (1 Corinthians 9.25). The moment any activity (be it gambling or reading) begins ruling one's life, that is when that activity becomes sinful for that individual. To be sure, we who stand in Christ possess a liberty unmatched, but we must be certain not to use our liberty as an occasion for the flesh (Galatians 5:13).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sauce (http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/gambling.html)

PS - Although I admire pious Christians who are careful not to err by not "walking the line", I don't believe the Roman soldiers casting lots for Jesus' clothes at his feet while he was dying is about gambling per se.

It was the fulfillment of a prophecy in Psalms 22:17.

I also believe it says alot about the potential aspect of turning men into killers and the humanity they can lose. (ie- Army, French Foreign Legion et al)

[David Sklansky]

Is betting $1000 for five hours a pop on red or black in roulette immoral or sinful? Can something be immoral but not sinful? Can something be sinful but not immoral?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Is betting $1000 for five hours a pop on red or black in roulette immoral or sinful? Can something be immoral but not sinful? Can something be sinful but not immoral?

[/ QUOTE ]

thoughts can be sinful but only acts can be immoral.

chez

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Is betting $1000 for five hours a pop on red or black in roulette immoral or sinful? Can something be immoral but not sinful? Can something be sinful but not immoral?

[/ QUOTE ]

When God watches someone do this, he doesn't think of the act in terms of sin or immorality, he thinks in terms of stupidity. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[David Sklansky]

I think you might be wrong. What does he say about lighting a cigar with a $100 bill?

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you might be wrong. What does he say about lighting a cigar with a $100 bill?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, I'll ask him.

[baggins]

what makes you think that Sin is breaking some rule?

Sin is the condition of your heart if you are allowing anything other than Christ to rule your heart. it is the separation from God.

or, from my protestant catechism "Sin is all in thought, word, and deed that is contrary to the will of God."

Sin is not just breaking some rule or law.

also, in some cases, sin can be a relative thing. some actions may not cause you to stumble in your faith or represent Christ horribly. and for some other people, those same actions my be a huge trial they are attempting to overcome, and for them to partake in such an activity would represent Christ horribly.

True the casting of lots was a fulfillment of prophecy, we (you and I) know that, my point was that a lot of pious Christians don't and they use this as an example of 'gambeling'

[Jeff V]

Where does it say in The Bible "Thou shall not Gamble"?

[baggins]

Xianity and Gambling

very quickly, my thoughts on the subject:

we as christians are taught in the bible to be good and faithful stewards of the wealth and posessions that we have been blessed with. whether through gifts or hard work, we have been trusted with these things, to use them toward good ends.

now, consider what most people consider 'gambling' and you have someone taking that money/wealth/gift/whatever and betting in a -EV situation (most 'gambling' situations would be considerd -EV, no?) you are getting the worst of it, and you could lose everything on the roll of the dice or the turn of a card or the spin of a wheel. this is not considered good and faithful stewardship. it is (rightly so) considered foolish squandering. it is sheer stupidity, and a stupidity that you knowingly buy into from the start, should you choose to 'gamble' with your money.

now, as poker players, we know that this game is beatable, and profitable. we know that, in the long run, if we are good enough and astute enough and play well, we will win. most people from the church who are against 'gambling' don't know this about poker. some that do would consider it stealing, then, to willingly take money from someone who doesn't know what they are doing. this is one moral ambiguity I haven't really agreed with, but don't quite disagree with, either. so I don't have a definitive thought with regards to poker as stealing. but, i think that should explain the origin of gambling as being a 'sin'.

[spaminator101]

I think Ill ask them that.

[RJT]

Ask them if they know who replaced Judas as the 12th apostle. Then ask them how this man was chosen.

Hint: Acts 1:26

[KeysrSoze]

Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And as we all know, the bible should be taken literally in all things: it is impossible for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle, so therefore it is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom (heaven I presume). So a rich degenerate gambler who throws his entire wealth away at the poker table or roulette wheel is just removing an obstacle to his ascendency into heaven.

Oh, and Pat Robertson (whose net worth is estimated to be over $200 million) is going to hell. That is all.

[baggins]

"And as we all know, the bible should be taken literally in all things"

when did anybody ever establish this?

also, unless you have studied ancient Greek, your 'literal' interpretation of this passage is quite lacking.

[KeysrSoze]

Dude, the King James version of the bible is the only inerrant translation there is, and should be taken as literal word for word. Jack Chick told me! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[baggins]

oh boy. jack chick.

i hereby apologize for the man and all his misguided tracts.

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And as we all know, the bible should be taken literally in all things: it is impossible for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle, so therefore it is impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom (heaven I presume). So a rich degenerate gambler who throws his entire wealth away at the poker table or roulette wheel is just removing an obstacle to his ascendency into heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus spoke in many parables and a study of the Bible will show it does not speak only literally, but also symbolically/figuratively.

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, and Pat Robertson (whose net worth is estimated to be over $200 million) is going to hell. That is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if Pat Robertson is going to hell or not, as if there is a hell and a God only only he would be able to judge a person's heart as to where they will spend their afterlife.

But Pat Robertson can't complain if he got to heaven and God pimpslapped him for using his ministry to urge the Bush administration to assassinate Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez.

For those in the dark, Robertson said:

[ QUOTE ]

"We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability,"


"We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator," he continued. "It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

[/ QUOTE ]

You can read the rest here (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm).

Hugo Chavez, for those that don't know, is the President of Venezuela. Without going into a bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chavez), people generally have mixed thoughts about Chavez.

He does seem to be very popular in Venezuela with the people (proletariats), but a portion of the country (Bourgeois) despises him because of his democratic socialist policies.

I'll admit I don't know too much about Chavez, nor have I been to the "República Bolivariana de Venezuela" (Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela) which Chavez with the support of the people renamed to be Venezuela's official name in honor of Simón Bolívar, but it's a very complex scenario.

In a nutshell though:

- Venezuela has oil
- Chavez supplies oil to Fidel Castro (much to the chargrin of the US)
- Chavez wants Latin America to unite (as was Bolívar's plan) in similar to the EU but the US likes Latin America as it is (Latin America has always been exploited since Columbus) discovered it.

Interesting fact, US Ships frequent the area around Venezuela from time to time and Chavez has publically stated that if he is assassinated blame George W. Bush, who Chavez once called a "Pendejo" (Spanish for "Stupid Wanker" or "Stupid [censored]"), so we know Chavez is intelligent. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ofcourse there are some reports about Chavez being 'crazy' but one must question where these reports are coming from as both the Bourgeois in Venezuela and the US have desire to see Chavez gone and a "Friend of Capitalism" (preferably one that be bribed like so many Latin American presidents that have 'greased the wheels' at the expense of their own people) put in his place.

I reserve my judgement on Chavez, but clearly Pat Robertson didn't, and furthermore he used a Christian Broadcast Network to call for an assassination order, and in the same speech said:

[ QUOTE ]

"(Venezuela under Chavez) ... a launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism."

[/ QUOTE ]

Hang on, isn't a call for an assassination broadcast on a religious network eerily similar to Ayatollah Khomeini's call in 1989 on Radio Tehran for a "Fatwa" on Salman Rusdie because he deemed Rushdie to be against Islam?

But it's ok for a Christian to do it right Robertson? (Jesus - the founder of Christianity - disagrees)

Pat Robertson is what is wrong with Christianity, and so is George Bush, and they both need to buy themselves a clue and read Jacques Ellul's "Anarchy and Christianity" and stop dragging a pacifist religion through the muddy waters of a right wing Government and invoking God for war decisions IMHO.

Perhaps the best thing for Robertson to do is switch denominations to one in which Church and State aren't seperate.

http://tinypic.com/dngkjp.jpg*

Robertson's comments were biased, inappropriate, and unecessary IMHO. Jesus said "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you" and even the Book of Revelations mentions martyrs who die (passively) for their belief in Jesus under an evil government NOT martyrs who die in a 'jihad' against an evil government or ones that call for an 'assassination' of political leaders. (I'd like to see the biblical basis for Robertson's 'assassination call')

Robertson is why a significant portion of people (especially teenagers) turn away from Christianity because many of them find out the people they listen to on a Sunday lie to them and/or pollute the message by interpolating their own human message between that of a religion. (which IMHO what Robertson has done in this case, and what Bush does everytime a camera is on him)

Yet perhaps the real tragedy here is the Christians who stand by Robertson after his comments, for they are truly sheep, but profess to be 'lambs' of two 'flocks' = Christianity (peace) + Right Wing Cohesion of Church & State. (war)

Oh and for the record this isn't the first time Robertson has done something stupid on record. Post 9/11 Jerry Falwell said homosexuals and their sins caused 9/11 and Robertson agreed with him. (yet later apologized and distanced himself saying he didn't understand what Falwell said)

In all fairness, preachers are men and make mistakes, some mistakes are to be forgiven upon acknowledgement and repentance, others though clearly question whether they are able to provide spiritual leadership to a congregation. (paedophiles and warmongers I'm looking at you)

Sorry for hijacking your thread spaminator101, but I will say that this is in a way "pseudo-applicable" to your situation regarding your Christian friends, who I have no doubt have their hearts in the right place, but let's hope their heads are nodding in agreement with a "Pat Robertson" style preacher.

If so, turn to the "Yellow Pages" and find ye another church with someone who's there to provide spiritual leadership, and not to make sure there's another x number of votes for the party he supports via spiritual pollution.

My 2c.

* Note to Catholics: Believe it or not, I don't mean to offend by posting this picture. The history of Catholicism regarding war is very long, very heavy, and very debatable. That doesn't mean it's a "coin flip" on what road to take in this particular issue though.

I personally believe one cannot be in bed politically with a person like Hitler and profess to follow a canon that contains messages like "I will bless those that bless you, and curse those who curse you" (Regarding the Jewish people - Genesis 12:3) & Jesus' message of love for your fellow man. (Remember, Jesus was of Jewish ethnicity, how can one hold masses in his name while at the same time 'hail' a man who's purpose is to erradicate said ethnicity?)

[TheQ]

I totally agree.

[KeysrSoze]

I was being facetious (in a A Modest Proposal kind of way) in my original post, but I'm glad it inspired that totally awesome rant. I really despise Pat.