Do These Smell Like Bluffs to You? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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09-09-2005, 03:30 PM

These are from two different 20+2 tourneys. I don't have reads on either of these guys, and they haven't seen me do much either.

Hand 1

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1423)
Button (t494)
SB (t885)
Hero (t1543)
UTG (t1955)
MP (t1700)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, MP calls t100, 3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (t250) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t100, MP calls t100.

Turn: (t450) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t250, MP raises to t500, Hero calls t250.

River: (t1450) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets t850, Hero ?

Hand 2

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t775)
UTG+1 (t775)
MP1 (t1230)
MP2 (t1190)
CO (t520)
Hero (t1140)
SB (t910)
BB (t1460)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls t30, 1 fold, CO calls t30, Hero raises to t150, 2 folds, MP1 calls t120, CO calls t120.

Flop: (t495) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets t250, MP1 calls t250, CO folds.

Turn: (t995) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (t995) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets t600, Hero ?

Hornacek

09-09-2005, 03:31 PM

no it smells like teen spirit

Hand 1 i call

Hand 2 i fold

downtown

09-09-2005, 03:35 PM

Hand 1: How come you're not pushing after getting raised on the turn? I'm pushing there 100% of the time.

Hand 2: I personally wouldn't play TT like this, but since you did, you have to fold after you checked the turn, or you have to push the turn. That's why I don't play TT like this.

schwza

09-09-2005, 03:38 PM

hand 1: i'd push the turn and then call the river.

hand 2: i fold unhappily.

09-09-2005, 03:52 PM

Both times I called, and both times I got shown 9's, coincidentally. I'm not sure why pushing is the most profitable play in either case. I feel like most of the time I'm either way ahead or way behind. Why not let them bluff the river? Granted it leads to a tough decision, and maybe I'm just cocky because I was right both times, but isn't the ability to make tough decisions where good players get their edge?

I can see a good argument for pushing my two pair in the second hand, because there's a chance any A will call, but why push in the second case? Is anyone going to fold a J there? I'm ahead of anything else, and there aren't too many cards that hurt me on the river. Why not just hope for a cheap showdown against someone who's got J and a weak kicker rather than pushing into them? I wanted to see how my opponent behaved on the river, and that overbet really felt like a bluff.

Is this too risky?

downtown

09-09-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Both times I called, and both times I got shown 9's, coincidentally. I'm not sure why pushing is the most profitable play in either case. I feel like most of the time I'm either way ahead or way behind. Why not let them bluff the river? Granted it leads to a tough decision, and maybe I'm just cocky because I was right both times, but isn't the ability to make tough decisions where good players get their edge?

I can see a good argument for pushing my two pair in the second hand, because there's a chance any A will call, but why push in the second case? Is anyone going to fold a J there? I'm ahead of anything else, and there aren't too many cards that hurt me on the river. Why not just hope for a cheap showdown against someone who's got J and a weak kicker rather than pushing into them? I wanted to see how my opponent behaved on the river, and that overbet really felt like a bluff.

Is this too risky?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your two pair hand is the first hand, and you push because it's a draw heavy board. If your opponent is on a draw, you just let them draw for cheap, and scare cards include any A, 8, 9, T or any heart (less likely the 9 or T scares you, but they still could complete some draws). The results of the hand do not mean your opponents will not play draws in this fashion and that merely calling the raise is correct.

The second hand, TT, you could get a weak J to fold there or even a strong J if you pushed the turn. Since the villain is apprently a megadonk, you could possibly get him to call as well, so apparently you are also pushing for value if you trust your read that you're ahead.

I guess calling down percieved bluffs just seems like FPS to me. Why not just play straightforward at the $22s? It works just as well if not much, much better.

schwza

09-09-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: How come you're not pushing after getting raised on the turn? I'm pushing there 100% of the time.

Hand 2: I personally wouldn't play TT like this, but since you did, you have to fold after you checked the turn, or you have to push the turn. That's why I don't play TT like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you do, limp? check behind on the flop?

downtown

09-09-2005, 04:21 PM

I would limp and bet the flop. This is hypothetical of course, because maybe now everyone decided to see this flop. Most likely I still get HU with the same villain, and I'm committing way less chips to this marginal holding on this board. Then if I'm OP and based on my read I want to check/call villain's river bet which is now much, much less than t600 it's fine. I have no problem with this line, but as often as there is an undercard flop to the 10s there is going to be 1+ overs. J is less scary than A or K here, but I still don't like it.

09-09-2005, 06:42 PM

Thanks all. Downtown in particular, I really appreciate your spelling out how limping the T's could help make this whole situation a lot clearer. I've been trying to work controlling pot size recently, which is part of why I checked behind (and I do think it helped- it makes the all-in on the river look suspicious), but I see what you're saying about how in an unraised pot this would be that much less complicated.

Much appreciated.