Interesting preflop question.

[The Truth]

Villian raises utg. His hand range includes: 88+, ATo+, KQo+, ATs+.

You are UTG +1.

What hands do you 3 bet with?


Here is the interesting question, Why this range?

[highlife]

depends on his play postflop, how many players are at the table, and how loose the blinds are.

also does he ALWAYS raise any hand in that range UTG?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian raises utg. His hand range includes: 88+, ATo+, KQo+, ATs+.

You are UTG +1.

What hands do you 3 bet with?


Here is the interesting question, Why this range?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont see what is interesting. its a math question. according to you he raises 9.2% of his hands UTG. therefore you reraise TT+ AQs and AK/AKs because that gives you an edge over his range.

i dont see what is interesting.

Barron

[brick]

He wants to know why you chose TT+ and not JJ+. etc.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
He wants to know why you chose TT+ and not JJ+. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

its because of his position and the range that is profitable for 3 bets vs. his range. JJ+ loses some EV that you gain from TT. TT to 99 however even in position is difficult to play vs. a raiser with that range b/c any overcards are bad and they are more likelyt o fall to 99 than TT

AQs again, gives a nice edge over his range as with AKs/AKo

Barron

[DeeJ]

Probably a similar range to villain because he's got a low raising threshold and I want to make it expensive for anyone else to come in. Occasionally I might 3-bet down to mid pockets (like 55+) because if an Ace doesn't flop, he can get in a mess with an AK/AQ/AJ/AT that misses-but it requires a good read on villain.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Probably a similar range to villain because he's got a low raising threshold and I want to make it expensive for anyone else to come in. Occasionally I might 3-bet down to mid pockets (like 55+) because if an Ace doesn't flop, he can get in a mess with an AK/AQ/AJ/AT that misses-but it requires a good read on villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

too loose.

Barron

[DeeJ]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif The point I am making is that UTG is too loose and I can therefore try to isolate and pick up the blinds with a lower reraise threshold than normal. I wonder if this is what OP was suggesting was interesting. Sure, the standard play is to only reraise when your range exceeds that of the first poster, which gives you an overlay (which is what you suggested) and if people behind think you're rocky and tight then they will fold their AQo when you have them beat.

I want them to fold their AQo when I don't have them beat.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
:) The point I am making is that UTG is too loose and I can therefore try to isolate and pick up the blinds with a lower reraise threshold than normal. I wonder if this is what OP was suggesting was interesting. Sure, the standard play is to only reraise when your range exceeds that of the first poster, which gives you an overlay (which is what you suggested) and if people behind think you're rocky and tight then they will fold their AQo when you have them beat.

I want them to fold their AQo when I don't have them beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

this UTG is NOT too loose. 9% utg is not at all too loose. 88 and up ATo and up KQo...thats exactly my range but i also raise KQs and sometimes KJs. 3betting me personally w/ AQo is correct. but thats about the worse hand you should 3bet me with unles your name is NYPlayer or James /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

but overall once you cross 10% or so then AQo becomes a 3bet. doing it to this UTG raiser is correct if you add KQs and KJs but OP specified that range

Barron

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
:) The point I am making is that UTG is too loose and I can therefore try to isolate and pick up the blinds with a lower reraise threshold than normal. I wonder if this is what OP was suggesting was interesting. Sure, the standard play is to only reraise when your range exceeds that of the first poster, which gives you an overlay (which is what you suggested) and if people behind think you're rocky and tight then they will fold their AQo when you have them beat.

I want them to fold their AQo when I don't have them beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

this UTG is NOT too loose. 9% utg is not at all too loose. 88 and up ATo and up KQo...thats exactly my range but i also raise KQs and sometimes KJs. 3betting me personally w/ AQo is correct. but thats about the worse hand you should 3bet me with unles your name is NYPlayer or James /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

but overall once you cross 10% or so then AQo becomes a 3bet. doing it to this UTG raiser is correct if you add KQs and KJs but OP specified that range

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

OK maybe I am the rock UTG /images/graemlins/smile.gif as on a 10-handed table I'm folding ATo UTG and UTG+1, sometimes folding AJo UTG. I don't think peter_rus plays ATo from UTG, and he's no rock /images/graemlins/smile.gif

UTG I'm at pfr of 7% or so, then 8% UTG+1 all the way to 17% at the button. Your sample size may be small but are you ahead with ATo UTG/+1?

I'm not sure we know what OP's interesting part is yet tho.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
:) The point I am making is that UTG is too loose and I can therefore try to isolate and pick up the blinds with a lower reraise threshold than normal. I wonder if this is what OP was suggesting was interesting. Sure, the standard play is to only reraise when your range exceeds that of the first poster, which gives you an overlay (which is what you suggested) and if people behind think you're rocky and tight then they will fold their AQo when you have them beat.

I want them to fold their AQo when I don't have them beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

this UTG is NOT too loose. 9% utg is not at all too loose. 88 and up ATo and up KQo...thats exactly my range but i also raise KQs and sometimes KJs. 3betting me personally w/ AQo is correct. but thats about the worse hand you should 3bet me with unles your name is NYPlayer or James /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

but overall once you cross 10% or so then AQo becomes a 3bet. doing it to this UTG raiser is correct if you add KQs and KJs but OP specified that range

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

OK maybe I am the rock UTG /images/graemlins/smile.gif as on a 10-handed table I'm folding ATo UTG and UTG+1, sometimes folding AJo UTG. I don't think peter_rus plays ATo from UTG, and he's no rock /images/graemlins/smile.gif

UTG I'm at pfr of 7% or so, then 8% UTG+1 all the way to 17% at the button. Your sample size may be small but are you ahead with ATo UTG/+1?

I'm not sure we know what OP's interesting part is yet tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

my stats suck in terms of sample size. 13k hands TOTAL in UTG+1 and 6k UTG so pretty meaningless. BUUUUUUT, it turns out i make very little money UTG in an 8-10 handed game. .02bb/100. jumps right up to .07 UTG+1 and continues up. 163k hands total accross all limits since Jan when i started this time around.

but there is definately a noticable difference in UTG. i dont make much money there so its possible i should tighten up quite a bit. I will try it and see how it works. I can't just throw away all hands UTG that are -ev b/c AKo as well as ATo and ATs are negative. no more than 100 times each though. down to 61 times for ATs.

i'll try it though...hope it works /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Barron

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He wants to know why you chose TT+ and not JJ+. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

its because of his position and the range that is profitable for 3 bets vs. his range. JJ+ loses some EV that you gain from TT. TT to 99 however even in position is difficult to play vs. a raiser with that range b/c any overcards are bad and they are more likelyt o fall to 99 than TT

AQs again, gives a nice edge over his range as with AKs/AKo

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point may be that you have to be a little bit better than profitable against his range? Because you're UTG+1, there may be a significant probability of someone behind you waking up with QQ-AA.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He wants to know why you chose TT+ and not JJ+. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

its because of his position and the range that is profitable for 3 bets vs. his range. JJ+ loses some EV that you gain from TT. TT to 99 however even in position is difficult to play vs. a raiser with that range b/c any overcards are bad and they are more likelyt o fall to 99 than TT

AQs again, gives a nice edge over his range as with AKs/AKo

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the point may be that you have to be a little bit better than profitable against his range? Because you're UTG+1, there may be a significant probability of someone behind you waking up with QQ-AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

position is important when 3betting for sure. but it doesn'tmatter as much as many think. you are correc though. you'd be happier 3betting the same hand from the button than UTG+1....but either way against a tight UTG raiser, AQo is a muck.

Barron

[STLantny]

So you are folding Aq here against the hands that were listed, DC?

BTW, are you still in St. Louis?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
So you are folding Aq here against the hands that were listed, DC?

BTW, are you still in St. Louis?

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess not. but its close. add KQs and KJs and hells no, especially since we are UTG+1. still 6 ways for KK and 3 each for QQ/AA and 6 for JJ to cap cold behind me. on the button i 3bet against that range for sure. its closer UTG+1

Barron

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
:) The point I am making is that UTG is too loose and I can therefore try to isolate and pick up the blinds with a lower reraise threshold than normal. I wonder if this is what OP was suggesting was interesting. Sure, the standard play is to only reraise when your range exceeds that of the first poster, which gives you an overlay (which is what you suggested) and if people behind think you're rocky and tight then they will fold their AQo when you have them beat.

I want them to fold their AQo when I don't have them beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

this UTG is NOT too loose. 9% utg is not at all too loose. 88 and up ATo and up KQo...thats exactly my range but i also raise KQs and sometimes KJs. 3betting me personally w/ AQo is correct. but thats about the worse hand you should 3bet me with unles your name is NYPlayer or James /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

but overall once you cross 10% or so then AQo becomes a 3bet. doing it to this UTG raiser is correct if you add KQs and KJs but OP specified that range

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

OK maybe I am the rock UTG /images/graemlins/smile.gif as on a 10-handed table I'm folding ATo UTG and UTG+1, sometimes folding AJo UTG. I don't think peter_rus plays ATo from UTG, and he's no rock /images/graemlins/smile.gif

UTG I'm at pfr of 7% or so, then 8% UTG+1 all the way to 17% at the button. Your sample size may be small but are you ahead with ATo UTG/+1?

I'm not sure we know what OP's interesting part is yet tho.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont see how any player in the world can make money on ATo from utg or utg+1. That is my opinion. As far as AJo and KQo, those are boarderline hands in early position, and I wont play them either if im in a very aggressive game like the typical online setting, but those hands are debatable, ATo is just not playable in this spot. Also in real life where the games are much more passive and the opponents are much more predictable, I think AJo and KQo from UTG are definitely playable and profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
:) The point I am making is that UTG is too loose and I can therefore try to isolate and pick up the blinds with a lower reraise threshold than normal. I wonder if this is what OP was suggesting was interesting. Sure, the standard play is to only reraise when your range exceeds that of the first poster, which gives you an overlay (which is what you suggested) and if people behind think you're rocky and tight then they will fold their AQo when you have them beat.

I want them to fold their AQo when I don't have them beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

this UTG is NOT too loose. 9% utg is not at all too loose. 88 and up ATo and up KQo...thats exactly my range but i also raise KQs and sometimes KJs. 3betting me personally w/ AQo is correct. but thats about the worse hand you should 3bet me with unles your name is NYPlayer or James /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

but overall once you cross 10% or so then AQo becomes a 3bet. doing it to this UTG raiser is correct if you add KQs and KJs but OP specified that range

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]
Even with your hand range, I will not 3 bet a player who plays well postflop with a hand like AQo no matter what the computer simulations suggest. Against a good player, this raise will put a person in a win small lose big proposition every time. Just my two cents.

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villian raises utg. His hand range includes: 88+, ATo+, KQo+, ATs+.

You are UTG +1.

What hands do you 3 bet with?


Here is the interesting question, Why this range?

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont see what is interesting. its a math question. according to you he raises 9.2% of his hands UTG. therefore you reraise TT+ AQs and AK/AKs because that gives you an edge over his range.

i dont see what is interesting.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. The question is interesting to me.

Do you really need an edge? How MUCH of one? remember, you will have position post-flop and likely get dead money in the pot.

Conversely, there are still lots of players left to act who may wake up with a 4 betting hand.

I would probably compromise and settle for something with a slight edge over his range, but can't defend why that is right or don't even know i a different strategy is better.

[The Truth]

This question stems from some preflop analysis I have been playing with lately.

How much equity do you need over his range in order to make 3 betting profitable?
Knowing this should help in making adjustments to laggy players raising from later position. If I want a 60-40 edge to 3 bet, which seems to be where the standard, then a guy raising 30% of his hands from the CO, is going to have me 3 betting fairly wide. Of course in actual play, I will have to add a modifer based on how well the villain plays postflop, and to account for other players, but you get the jist.

I have been playing with alot of preflop ideas, and I am finding some interesting things thus far. At least interesting to me, but I am a math dork.