check-raise on the flop

[ashes will fall]

Playing my second hand at a 9-handed 3/6 table online.

I'm holding A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif the SB. Two folds to EMP limper, CO limps, Button limps, I complete, and BB checks. 5 to the flop for 5 SB's.

Flop comes: Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I check, BB checks, EMP checks, CO bets, Button calls, I check-raise. BB and EMP fold, CO calls, Button calls. 3 to the turn for 11 SB's.

Turn comes: 9 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif [Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ]

I bet, CO calls, Button calls. 3 to the river for 8.5 BB's.

River comes: 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif [9 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ]

I check, CO bets, Button calls, I muck.

A couple of questions...

Was I correct in check-raising the flop? Opening on the turn? I'm assuming my check-fold on the river is correct since any decent queen would probably call me down. Or should I have bet? What if the Button had folded to CO's bet? Would a check-raise be worth it? Is there any way I can play this hand and similar hands better?

Thanks for any help or advice.

See you at the tables.

[Ginogino]

Ashes:
What is your reason for check-raising the flop? If it's to put more money in, I disagree -- you're likely not ahead at this point, and you need to hit something to have a realistic chance of winning against 5 players. You have (probably) the equivalent of 7 outs -- 3 A's; 2 8's; and a backdoor nut flush draw (the equivalent of, say, 2 outs) -- say one chance in seven.

If it's to lose opponents (and put dead money in the pot), you realistically can hope to lose at most two opponents, but you won't lose anyone with a better hand or with an 8-out straight draw (with a 7-6) or maybe even anyone with J-T or T-9 or the like. The results of your check-raise are about as good as you can hope for.

I aggree that you want to see the turn, but I think you would do better to try to see it as cheaply as possible. The cards which help you (the A's, 8's, and most of the diamonds) aren't likely to help other people, though the 9d which comes is perhaps the worst "helpful" card, as it gives your opponents the chance to complete straight draws if they have them. But even then, you can check-call to the river, and if a diamond comes you'll beat straights.

I think you can afford to play the flop as cheaply as possible, and I would argue against check-raising (your position stinks throughout, and you can't buy either the button or a free card). I should mention that I've been wrong before, however.

BTW, your "handle" reminds me of a fabled Pennsylvania anti-smoking poster of the early 50's: "Don't smoke in bed. The ashes that hit the floor may be your own."

Gino

[JTG51]

With a bet and a call on a ragged board it's hard to imagine your 8's were ahead on the flop. You are only getting 7-1, so a call would be pretty marginal, I think you can fold.

Given that you check raised, I think you played the rest of the hand fine.

[SittingBull]

[Bob T.]

If there was only the bettor, I like checkraising the flop here, and then betting out on the turn. Once there is a second player in the hand, I think that it is between a call and a fold, but I would lean toward fold.

After you checkraise the flop, and then improve with the flush draw, I think betting the turn is the only play.

[Allan]

With only a 5 out hand the pot odds needed are 8:1 to make a correct call. With the backdoor flush draw and pot odds of 7:1 I would make this call. Why do find this to be a marginal call?

Allan

[Allan]

Hey Bob,

Can you explain why you would lean towards a fold. I find myself leaning towards a call.

Allan

[Bob T.]

The bettor might have anything, but then the next player calls. Now you have to beat both of them to win the hand. It is possible that the second player has top pair, bad kicker, or a draw, that really wouldn't affect your hand, but he might also have a set or two pair, and be waiting until the turn to raise. If only the bettor was present, I would checkraise the flop, and bet out on the turn. The presence of the second player makes raising a problem, the odds the hand is offering me are marginal, I don't have good position, and if I miss the turn, I still don't know how to play from here. So I just get out of the way, and look for a better place to get involved. It is still possible that you are behind the bettor. Just because he is in late position, doesn't mean that he can't have a hand.

[Allan]

Bob,

I completely agree with not raising the flop due to other caller involved. I guess what I'm getting at is that I tend to make these marginal calls. Not holding the backdoor draw I believe I would fold since that 7:1 isn't enough for me to continue. It seems to me that the backdoor draw addsenough value to the hand and the pot is just big enough for me to want to make the call. Yes I MIGHT be drawing dead to a set but I think my 2 pair will be good a lot of the time and my flush should obviously be good when it gets there. Do you think it is an obvious fold and am I too loose in these situations, or is it just a close decision either way not really affecting your overall bottom line yet increasing varience?


Allan

[Bob T.]

Hi Allan,

I think its close to neutral. I like the situation where I can checkraise, and get my opponents reaction. I don't like the situation where I have to call with a couple players yet to act, and I don't know how to play the turn. If I have to call this bet, what am I going to do on the turn? If I check and the bettor bets again, the button calls again, and now I am getting 6 to 1 to call on the turn, and my hand might be good, and then 8 to 1 on the river. I think this situation has a lot of negative implied odds. Great, now I played the hand, check, check - call, check - call, check - call. I sure hope I win /forums/images/icons/grin.gif .

There are a lot of situations in poker, where you don't have a good guess whether or not you are ahead. For the most part, I think that in these situations, when you are the aggressor, they play better. If you haven't, check out the thread I started, 'playing the game, or plain insane?'.

Here is an example that is simpler than it ever is in real life, but it illustrates the principle. Lets say you get to the river, headsup, and you have to act first. There are 6 Big bets in the pot, and there is a 40% chance that you are ahead. (Maybe you have second pair top kicker) If you check, your opponent will bet about 80% of the time. Since you can beat him 20% of the time if he bets, you have to call, because the pot is offering you 7 to 1 on the last bet. If you check and call, you will win an extra bet 20 % of the time. If you bet, he will call about 90% of the time. If you bet, and he calls, you will win an extra bet 30% of the time. So even though you are likely behind in this situation, you win more money in the long run if you are the aggressor. I think that a lot of low limit poker gets played this way, and I this is one of the reasons why I like the situation where I could checkraise the flop and take control of the hand, and why I duck the situation, where I might have a marginal call, and I will have to be reacting to my opponents.

I also think that anytime that there is an extra caller in the hand, and my second out is an Ace, I might have to deduct one ace from my possible outs, because between the chances of one of my opponents holding an Ace, or the top pair having an ace kicker, the ace is less likely to show up on the turn, and more likely to not be an out if it does.

I guess, I might call here on the flop, if I knew that the bettor would bet if checked too, regardless of the card that came on the turn, and if I knew that the button rarely folded for one bet on the turn, so that if I thought that I might be able to capture 3 big bets, if I caught well on the turn, and be recieving a lot of implied odds. It is just a muddy situation, and I don't have to play, and if I do, there is a good chance that I am getting outplayed, so I avoid it. If you have confidence in your ability to handle this situation, go ahead. Like I said, it is a muddy situation, and you might be ahead, or might have odds to catch up.

On the other hand, Yesterday I called on the button with A5 suited, and the BB raised. 5 of us saw the flop, which was ragged, and gave me bottom pair with a back door flush draw. The BB bet out, and there were two callers, so I was getting 13 to 1, closing the action to draw to this hand. I called, the turn ragged off, and it was checked through. The river was another 5, it got bet in early position, 1 caller, and I raised, and got 1 caller. In this situation, because of the preflop raise, I had an easy overlay to call the flop bet, and so I continued with the hand. I think that enough situations come up where we have clear overlays that we can play those, so that when they come up and it is neutral at best, we don't need to play them.

Anyway, even though this looks like it might be neutral, that is why I would lean toward folding.