For Flair1239 - Not paying off a flush draw

[MaxPower]

You made a post the other day wondering about situations where you would not pay somebody off when the river completes a flush.

Here is hand I played last night.

A really awfull player limps in MP1, a rock limps in MP3, I call on the button with K /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, sb completes, bb checks

Flop (5 players - Pot 5 SB): K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

checked to me, I bet, sb calls, bb folds, MP1 calls, MP3 folds

FYI, the sb is a good player.

Turn (3 players - Pot 4BB): 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

sb checks, MP1 bets all-in for $4, I complete to $30, sb calls.

River (3 players, 1 all-in - Pot 6.something BB): 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

sb bets, I fold.

[flair1239]

WOuld I be correct in saying, that you did not fear SB had a lesser King (or pair), because he did not take the oppurtunity on the flop to get HU with you. And the fact that the SB being a good player, he is not chasing a naked gutshot... so the flush is the only legitiamte draw out there.

Also the pot is not really that large (although I would classify it as a medium sized pot at this point).

Can you talk me through it a little bit, because I think I am following you... but in all honesty... I probably do payoff here, give me a couple things to think about or ask some pointed questions... this interests me and is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about the last couple weeks.

Thank you.

[MaxPower]

Actually, on the river it should say that we have a main pot of about 4BB and a side pot of about 2BB.

That is one factor that lead me to fold, but there are others.

[car ramrod]

why no raise pf?

[Bodhi]

Why this fear about paying off one bet on the river? I understand that the SB is a good player, but not showing down here seems a little extreme, no?

[MaxPower]

I pay off liberally, but in this case it is just wrong.

[Bodhi]

This is a very read dependent fold, then, and those are rarely good for forum discussion.

Calling one BB in a 4 bb pot? seems like it doesn't take much of a read to be at least 80 % sure you're beat. What else could he have?

[MaxPower]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very read dependent fold, then, and those are rarely good for forum discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't. I told you the guy plays good. Show me a hand that a good player plays this way that I can beat. Keep in mind that there is an all-in player.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a very read dependent fold, then, and those are rarely good for forum discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it isn't. I told you the guy plays good. Show me a hand that a good player plays this way that I can beat. Keep in mind that there is an all-in player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fwiw I think most goodp layers would check raise the flop with a flush draw once it gets checked to an aggressive player last to act. He has to assume you're betting a ton of [censored] there and now that no one else has shown interest he has a chance to win it unimproved. Also, I don't care about the all in guy, he has whatever he has and I wouldn't be surprised if it couldn't beat jack high.

[Bodhi]

The pot is not 4bb. It is 6bb, and with the villain's bet, hero is getting >7:1.

[MaxPower]

Evan,

You make a decent point, but the fact is that he called twice. The first time he had 3 people to act behind him. You can't just ignore that fact.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]


Fwiw I think most goodp layers would check raise the flop with a flush draw once it gets checked to an aggressive player last to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not so sure that most would CR with a small flush draw though.

Bodhi-

Yeah, I see that now. His shorthand was refering to the main pot + sidepot. I agree, for 6 bb we have to call. My mistake.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Evan,

You make a decent point, but the fact is that he called twice. The first time he had 3 people to act behind him. You can't just ignore that fact.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're also getting 7:1, can't ignore that.

EDIT: I think the real point I'm trying to make is that this isn't a great example of when you can fold after a flush card hits. Even if this is a fold it's extremely close and not one I'd use to illustrate the point. Either way, I'd call.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, for 6 bb we have to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
What hand do you think a good sb would have that you're beating?

I really wanted to find a reason to call this river, but I couldn't figure out any reasonable hand for sb. Change the turn from a 9 to an 8 and I can find a call.

[DocMartin]

So bottom line.

You dont play off a flush draw when you have a REALLY good read on someone as a very solid player who just calls out of position throughout the hand and then bets when the flush gets there (especially when someone is already all in and you have been showing strength the entire hand).

Or when a good player raises the flushy flop (with position), checks the turn (takes the free card he raised for), and then bets or raises the river when the flush gets there.

The read is obviously key. Multiway hands make it easier to lay down as well, since the chances ONE of them stuck around with a flush draw is more likely. River checkraise from an ABC player is a pretty good sign.

These things can make a huge difference though, I know for sure that me being in the red at 5/10 so far is partially due to paying off the donks when I only have Ace high or 1 pair.

I am printing this out and putting it somewhere.
'People are not taking shots at me'