Wimp versus the closet monster

[pufferfish]

Online LL, loose, fairly passive pre-flop and a little aggressive post-flop.

I'm the button with As Kc.

UTG hasn't been at the table long, but he seems like a decent player.

UTG calls, folded to CO who calls. I raise, SB folds and everyone else calls.

FLOP: [ 8s 8c Kd ]

BB checks, UTG bets, CO folds, I raise, BB folds and UTG calls.

I know I shouldn't be afraid of monsters in the closet, but I hate paired boards.
I raised to regain control of the hand, but...

TURN: [ 8s 8c Kd ] [ 3d ]

UTG bets into me again and I call.

I imagine I'll get flack for this call, but it seemed like a way ahead/way behind deal to me.

RIVER: [ 8s 8c Kd 3d ] [ Ah ]

UTG checks. I don't think he's setting me up for a check-raise, I think he didn't like that Ace. I bet and he calls.

He shows Kh Qs and my hand is good.

I'm not sure if my wimpy play maximized my profit in this hand, or if I lost a BB by not raising the turn. In hindsight, it looks like UTG was playing his hand as fast as he could because he felt vulnerable.

Oh well, any comments would be appreciated.

TIA,
pf

[JTG51]

The stop and go betting pattern that he used makes it hard for me to put opponents on a hand sometimes. I rarely see it in my games so when I do I end up scratching my head sometimes. His play looks a lot more like a K than an 8 in this case though, so I'd raise the turn. Most players wouldn't bet the flop with an 8, and if they did they'd either 3-bet the flop or try to check raise the turn.

[travisand]

I believe that an 8 would either have 3 bet the flop or check-raised the turn. When UTG just bet the turn I would definitely have raised it.

[Joe Tall]

I would raise the turn here. I'd try to take control of the hand, and if you get rerasied you'll be sure he has the trips, giving him credit for an A8 defence of his live blind.

[Louie Landale]

Lets play this one: you call UTG with KQs, solid raises on the button and 4 of you take the flop. Flop is K88, you bet, solid calls, heads-up. NOW what do you do?? Aren't you "trapped" into going to the river and paying it off??

You have flopped a VERY safe hand. Nobody is drawing good to beat you; likewise if you are beat you are not drawing good. BB either has an 8 or is drawing dead, so you have no reason to raise on the flop.

I'd be VERY tempted to flat call this one and see how it developes.

This goes doubly on the turn. UTG can very likely throw away is likely KQ if you raise for a 3rd time, yet he's obligated to pay it off if you don't.

These either-way-ahead-or-way-behind late-position hands are SCREAMING for calls.

- Louie

[pufferfish]

Louie,
I’ve been thinking about your post for a while. Let me see if I’ve got this straight.

You’re saying the late position player should go into call-down mode starting with the flop.

That this may be the best maximize your profit/minimize your loss way to play it. Let UTG bet your hand for you.

If I have this wrong I’d appreciate a correction.

Thank you,
pf

[pufferfish]

Thank you JTG51, travisand and LarryJoeFish33.

If I understand Louis’s post he has a different take on this. My flop raise was a lame way of trying to get UTG to tell me I was beat.

Then I wimped on the turn. I consider the river bet a small saving grace as I would have kicked myself if I’d have checked it through.

pf

[bernie]

couple different ways of playing this hand.

the way you played was fine. some players dont checkraise. those players may bet out on the turn this way. and sometimes you think no way he could play an 8 there, and lo and behold. but it's still unlikely.

a turn raise 'can' cause a player to lay down. which misses a bet. since the player called on the end, he may have called it anyways. but there are times when trading 1 bet gained for the pot isnt a bad idea. (him folding a draw to beat you)

though look at your hand from his view. it doesnt look like you have AK does it? on the end, he was probably thinking you had AQ. nothing wrong with him putting you on the wrong hand. he didnt put you on an 8.

the more you know about the player, and how he plays etc...the more options you can use against him.

the river is a gimme bet against most players youll face.

b

[pufferfish]

Hey Bernie.

I didn’t think BB would call the flop even if I hadn’t raised.

UTG was new and I had no notes on him, so dangerous to make assumptions.

I raised UTG to gain information then disregarded it on the turn, failed effort.

the river is a gimme bet against most players youll face.

OK, /forums/images/icons/smile.gif just me trying to salvage some pride.

[Louie Landale]

Yes. You encourage him to continue to bluff AND encourage him to pay you off if he checks. It encourages callers who at best have 2 or maybe 3 outs. I think this makes MORE money when you have the best hand (unless he's a predictable manaic and will raise a few times with a stiff K) AND saves money when beat.

It also adds some apparent "varience" to your play: they will notice you may NOT take the lead with a strong hand once in a while.

Note that there are no draws. Things change a lot if the flow was TTK 2-flush.

Trying this from early position ends up losing money when you have the best hand since a round or two will get checked around.

- Louie

[pufferfish]

Thanks Louie.

I played some last night and this situation came up twice. Both times I thought of your post. It saved me money as I had the second best hand both times.

ty,
pf