A hand you guys are going to hate

[flair1239]

Not going to use the typical layout for this one, because it was fairly situational and player specific.

This took place at 5/10 full on UB.

There was a player (2) seats to my left at both tables I was playing. He was about a 35/7/1.8. At first I thought he was mildly retarded, as he made a couple dumbass bluff runs at me early on. But then he started actually applying some intelligent pressure and I am pretty sure he pushed me off a couple best hands in 4-5BB pots.

I was thinking of leaving the table, but they were slightly good games, with a couple loose/bad types on each table, as well as some tight passive 24/4/.7 types. So I really did not want to abdicate (2) good games, just because some mildly thinking LAG was making it difficult.... Plus he was interesting to play against and I was having fun in our confrontations.

So I adjusted to him and started checkraising him, when I was a little light... exploiting my tight image. HE eventually caught on, and started either calling down or raising the turn. So we went back and forth over a couple hours, I was getting slightly the better of it primarily because of his looseness, and the fact that he would overplay his draws on the turn. But I actually felt like he was pretty creative post-flop, if nothing else he would get us heads up pretty well.

This hand occured toward the end of the session, during a period where I had switched gears and tightened up.

Hero is BB w/ A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif

Villian is UTG2

Villian raises, SB calls, I call

Flop: T /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, Villian raises, SB folds, I call

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, Villian thinks for a while..times out on the other table.. bets with a few seconds left, I raise, Villian folds hand on the other table... then thinks a bit and calls.

River: K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, Villian instaraises, I call

First off he was not disconnected on the turn, he was thinking. I would not put it past him though to simulate this just to bring me in deeper. However, I felt if he had a spade, he would go apeshit on my checkraise.

Also I had been betting into him frequently with my flush draws and straight draws. He has seen me three bet draws on the flop and he has had me check raise him on the turn after betting a draw on the flop that got there on the turn.

Here is the kicker... he also caught me on a Clarkmeister, during a period where I was getting laggy with him.

Anyways.. flame away.

Happy Friday /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[jskills]

I don't understand the flop bet. It's an easy check / fold for me.

I don't understand the turn check / raise with a gutshot and a flush on the board.

I don't get the river bet either - he already caught you making the Clarkmeister move once, so he's going to raise with any /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I realize I was not on the table playing this particular opponent, so I cannot appreciate the kind of psychological warfare that was going on. But from a strictly objective point of view, this entire hand seems like spewing on every street.

[MaxPower]

The flop is fine.

In my opinion, The turn check-raise is almost never going to fold him. I would call the river unimproved against this guy, but that is a tough play on this board.

The river is fine.

[Bodhi]

Post pot-sizes please.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the flop bet. It's an easy check / fold for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said we had been mixing it up for a while. Truthfully, we kind of had the game unhinged a little bit. He had loosened up his raising standards pre-flop to the point where his 7% pfr is misleading.

I bet not expecting him to fold, but expecting him to raise and hoping we would lose the SB. At this point there is a chace I actually have the best hand. And after all the crap we have been doing, I really feel I can't fold this flop against him in this situation without giving up too much.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the turn check / raise with a gutshot and a flush on the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had an open ended straight draw. I did not intend to CR him when I checked the turn. But his long think made me, think I might be able to push him out. As I had played made flushes like this with him before, that he had paid off.

Also at this point I think my Ace might be clean, also there is a fair (but small) chance that my hand is the best

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the river bet either - he already caught you making the Clarkmeister move once, so he's going to raise with any /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was value betting. As I said in the OP. I believe if he has a spade he is 3-betting the turn. I also was not so sure that he would raise on the river with a small spade, after my turn checkraise. But I think at this point, since we have taken turns crawling up in each others ass, that he will call with a worse hand.

As for calling the raise, I was not happy about it... but due to the situation, I really could not see folding.

[ QUOTE ]
I realize I was not on the table playing this particular opponent, so I cannot appreciate the kind of psychological warfare that was going on. But from a strictly objective point of view, this entire hand seems like spewing on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence the title of the post and the extensive history background I provided.

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
The flop is fine.

In my opinion, The turn check-raise is almost never going to fold him. I would call the river unimproved against this guy, but that is a tough play on this board.

The river is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was wondering what to do on the river when I missed. Because I am reaaly not sure how often he is calling that turn raise with a worse hand.

How bad would a followup bet be on the river after a miss? My problem with that is I am pretty sure I am not calling a raise unimproved, and also I am probably just going to fold a worse hand, as after all the crap we have done to each other, I am not so sure he would fold a better hand.

[jskills]

Thanks for clearing it up. Your actions all make a lot more sense now that I've read that and looked at the hand again. I didn't realize you were open ended on the turn.

His stats didn't make him seem like a complete LAG though. I could see this much easier with a 50/20/3 type. I used to relish playing LAGs and raising with A high and winning at showdown, but I now find myself shying away from these situations more, since they can be very costly (for me anyway). I suppose if I ever want to move up from 2/4 I should try to get better at this kind of situation ...

[flair1239]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for clearing it up. Your actions all make a lot more sense now that I've read that and looked at the hand again. I didn't realize you were open ended on the turn.

His stats didn't make him seem like a complete LAG though. I could see this much easier with a 50/20/3 type. I used to relish playing LAGs and raising with A high and winning at showdown, but I now find myself shying away from these situations more, since they can be very costly (for me anyway). I suppose if I ever want to move up from 2/4 I should try to get better at this kind of situation ...

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I posted the hand, is because when I watched it on Pokertracker after the session, I was thinking..."Man, that was pretty bad."

Which was completely different from what I thought at the time of the hand. So I took five minutes and made a list of the circumstances and how they applied to each move I made.

What I thought was interesting, is that the mitigating factors move something that looks like a train wreck at first glance, to something that is actually defendable(in my opinion).

I am not saying I think I got everything right. The turn check-raise for example was probably too cute by half... but at the same time I don't think I got everything wrong.

[private joker]

I actually like the hand until the river. Despite Clarkmeister, I think a check-call is best. He's never folding a better hand to a bet, given your read on him. However, if you check, I imagine he will bet a TON of hands you can beat -- that is, virtually any non-spade hand.

If you don't hit the straight on the end, I like a bet/fold.