$5 2-table Q8o hand

This is a $5, 2-table sng 4 get paid. This table had been fairly tight with most everyone folding to any raise. This is the last hand before the break & going into next level. Button has been fairly loose, SB conservative not real agressive, & BB seems to be a good player. As for my immage (if it matters) I had folded the 5 pervious hands pre-flop. My last to show down was a pkt pair of 8s knocking out short stack (after shorties initial bet I put him all-in & he called w/ A8off) This is my first hand to post, so if I missed some info, let me know. Thanks..

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (t2762)
SB (t2861)
BB (t4110)
UTG (t2265)
Hero (t4092)
MP2 (t2570)
CO (t8340)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t200, MP2 calls t200, CO calls t200, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t600</font>, SB calls t500, BB calls t400, Hero calls t400, MP2 calls t400, CO calls t400.

Flop: (t3600) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>

<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t400</font>, Hero?

[durron597]

Fold preflop. When the button raises, fold preflop again.

Edit: playing this hand this way preflop is a MAJOR leak. There is no question whatsoever.

Edit2: I probably should discuss the flop, since that's what you care about anyway. The pot is SO big that you will probably get a call by one pair queens, especially with so many other people in, so I would just push now.

[sng-sam]

Hero should have folded this trash preflop. Since you didn't and you flopped two pair and it's a 5 dollar tournament, I re-reaise all in here as the $5 donkeys will call you with top pair and a jack kicker.

Straight Flushes,

SAM

edited to change to into two duh.

[lorinda]

You cannot call with this hand preflop.
If you feel like the timing is right, you can raise, but you cannot call.

Raising with the hand preflop (Which I wouldn't recommend either by the way) can blast out the people behind you so that you get to be the last to act on each street, and can also take down the blinds without having to actually see a flop.

When the button makes it 600, again you should fold, it's a lot of chips to invest with one high card and nothing else going for you.
This hand is unplayable at this (and most other) stage.

However, you played it and have made a really good post, so let's look at the flop.

One thing to note is that there is a big difference between loose/passive and loose/aggressive and sometimes new players confuse the two.
If the button has been calling a lot, then that would be loose/passive. This is what calling with Q8 is.
If he's been raising a lot, that would be loose/aggressive, a far more difficult animal to deal with but still beatable.

This pot is simply enormous on the flop and the chances are we have the best hand. With so many people in though, things can turn sour quickly. If someone has KQ and someone else has AA and maybe someone is getting the value to try one card with JT, our hand can turn bad fast.
We may also be up against a set, likely of 5s, but we can't worry about sets.
If we only lose to sets in our poker life, we will do just fine, so we ignore the possibility in $5 SNGs and never ever think that we might be up against one.
(Basically, by the time we work out we might be dead, we might as well call to try to get lucky anyway, so we don't worry about it. This is because sets are so well disguised and our stacks are so small)

Our most simple play here is to push all our chips in and either get called by an overpair (or set /images/graemlins/frown.gif ) or get everyone to fold.
The pot is big enough to take down right now.

I don't think getting tricky and calling is particuarly bad on such a lovely board, but to start with you should just play nice simple poker. Bet when you think you are in front, fold when you think you're behind and call when you think you're getting good value to draw to a hand.

Try to almost ignore the call button preflop. If it's not good enough to raise with then don't play it (unless it's a small pair).

Edit: (Just in case) We do worry about trips, which is where there are two cards of the same denomination on the board, just don't worry about sets where someone needs to have a pocket pair.


Lori

[Jonsan]

Definately fold pre-flop.

However, since you saw the flop...with 3600 in the pot I am not sure what to make of a minimum bet with a minimum raise. I think I push this and get called by someone with TPTK or an overpair. Or maybe a set and I am SOL. But on this flop I think I am ahead the majority of the time. I am not an incredible player though, so I may be way off.

J

[Nicholasp27]

fold pf...calling 600 with q8 isn't gonna increase your roi

but once u have called pf, at this point i would push

4200 in the pot...get your chips in there and you are looking at 1-2 callers, giving you somewhere between 8-12k chips after you win this hand...you are getting called by aq, maybe kq, kk, aa...if they have a set, then oh well...

why put 600 into a pot pf if you are unwilling to play a nonscary flop that hits you twice?

i think you are respecting their min bet/min raise (200/400) into a HUGE pot too much

i go broke against set, win a HUGE pot the rest of the time

Everyone, thanks for the responses, especially Lorinda. I appreciate the extra input. My thinking here was in how many folds there were by everyone in the previous half dozen hands. I recognized this was week holding, but thought "lets limp &amp; see what happens". (Thanks to your responses I recognize this is more of a leak than I thougt, even if once or twice a tourney.) When the raise came after all the calls I initially thought insta fold, but by the time it gets to me my pot odds are 5 to 1 &amp; likely to get another caller. I was wrong to call preflop, but I think I was more correct in calling the raise w/ 5-1 (ending up 7-1) pot odds. Anyone else buy into that?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
but I think I was more correct in calling the raise w/ 5-1 (ending up 7-1) pot odds. Anyone else buy into that?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people think "oh wow the pot is so big it's so cheap, I call". But realize that you don't have enough pot equity with a hand that's likely dominated with that many players in. I would much rather (relatively speaking) see your preflop play with a hand like J/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif or 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif because with the first hand you can hope to flop a good draw and in the second flop a set and thus have a much likelier shot at having the best hand than limp calling with Q8o and praying that you hit your 20:1 of hitting 2 pair on the flop or 70:1 of flopping trips.

Think about what happens if you only flop one pair of queens, it's checked to you and you bet and get raised. Now what? You've put yourself in a horrible spot when you could easily have folded preflop.

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
When the raise came after all the calls I initially thought insta fold, but by the time it gets to me my pot odds are 5 to 1 &amp; likely to get another caller. I was wrong to call preflop, but I think I was more correct in calling the raise w/ 5-1 (ending up 7-1) pot odds. Anyone else buy into that?

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the two active players behind you could also have decided that this was a fine time to push pre-flop.

The only time I limp with a hand like that at a relatively full table is if I'm getting huge odds, my call completes the action, and almost everybody has stacks of 30 to 50 times the BB.



[ QUOTE ]
My thinking here was in how many folds there were by everyone in the previous half dozen hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take advantage of tight table play by raising pre-flop, not limping in.

Pot odds are simply a ratio of the pot size to the amount of your necessary call (as you know). But in order to assign any meaning to them the ALWAYS have to be compared to hand odds. The hand odds are always an estimation but sometimes this is more straight forward (e.g., flush draw against likely top pair) when outs can be counted etc.

While "outs" can't really be counted preflop you must compare your pot odds to the likelihood that your hand will win the pot ultimately. In a 6-player raised pot, your Q8o chances of winning are miniscule - basically need to flop a boat or straight (with a rainbow board) to feel AS confident as the guy counting his outs to the nut flush draw would be if his hand hits.

That being said, a mistake of limping with a bad hand preflop is not ALWAYS "corrected" by folding to a raise if your odds are good enough. But in this case it is.